Moving in from SB with K9 off with M of 6 after one limper

OneByPhi · #1 08-21-2007, 01:02 AM

Casino tourney with a $50 buy-in. 200 players or so start, down to about 80 at the end of level 5. Only the last 10 players get paid. Blinds at 400/800, going to 500/1000 in about 4 minutes. I'm in SB with 7200 after posting my SB, roughly an average stack for the table. Big stack has about 20,000 and has just been moved to the table. I have no reads on him.

The first two players fold, and big stack limps in. Action is folded to me in the SB, where I pick up K9 offsuit. BB is an ultra-tight player who has folded hand after hand and is down to 1200 after putting in his 800 blind. I consider shoving, figuring that the big stack probably doesn't have much of a hand if he limped from 3rd seat (maybe a weak ace, suited connectors, or a low-to-middle pair) and that the BB is so tight that he will probably fold if he has a weak hand, but even if he decides to play I am a favorite against a random hand. I would prefer that he folded, so that the big stack will only be getting roughly 1 1/2:1 pot odds, but I realize that if BB calls the pot will grow to 10,400 and the big stack will be even more tempted to play with even a modest hand, but so many players in this tourney don't really understand pot odds, and many of them with a big stack will just decide that they don't want to risk losing 1/3 of their stack with a marginal hand, especially if the BB folds.

Anyway, I push. The BB insta-calls, as does the big stack. I sheepishly turn over my K9 off, and they both turn over AQ off! The flop brings KQ4 rainbow, the turn brings another king, and I rake a very nice pot and am back in the saddle again.

The big stack growled, "I'll call you every time you try that!" Then he asked me how I could possibly make that move against the big stack with those raggedy-ass cards. My first thought was, "Why did you limp AQ? If you raise pre-flop, I just muck that hand, and instead you gave me 1/3 of your stack," but I didn't say anything.

But, I thought about the move a bit and began to wonder. And now that I'm home and have had time to think about it, I still am not sure how sound the move was. My M was down to 6, and would be even worse when the blinds went up, but since I was in the SB, the blinds weren't coming back around for a while. Plus, I had no information at all on how the big stack played. What do you guys think of this move?

erc007 · #2 08-21-2007, 01:19 AM

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Blinds at 400/800, going to 500/1000 in about 4 minutes. I'm in SB with 7200 after posting my SB

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Zero Folding Equity (after a limper) and you're behind his limping range...I'd fold then shove any two next time it's folded to me. You're OTB next hand and you still have 9BB's, plenty of FE (if you're shoving 1st in.)

OneByPhi · #3 08-21-2007, 02:24 AM

I knew I was behind his limping range. The issue was whether he would play. Online, I definitely would not make that move because online players are much more likely to look me up. But in live games, especially at low buy-ins, a lot of players lay down there, at least in the places where I play. I guess what I'm asking is whether people think that in typical low-buy-in casino games most players would be likely enough to fold there that it would be a profitable move, long-term.

erc007 · #4 08-21-2007, 02:41 AM

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I knew I was behind his limping range. The issue was whether he would play. Online, I definitely would not make that move because online players are much more likely to look me up. But in live games, especially at low buy-ins, a lot of players lay down there, at least in the places where I play. I guess what I'm asking is whether people think that in typical low-buy-in casino games most players would be likely enough to fold there that it would be a profitable move, long-term.

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Yeah, i play almost exclusively online, but i do understand the basic differences btwn live and online play. The fact that the limper was a big stack too makes a big difference, even live IMO. The 'embarassment factor' when he calls u with A2s or 33 and loses is not there if he's a big stack. I just think that when playing a small stack (live or online) you have to look for EV+ spots, and you have to be careful. Folding and having 9BB's and position for at least two more hands leaves you with better opportunites (ie: shoving any two 1st-in) to steal with significant FE IMO.

levAA · #5 08-21-2007, 03:35 AM

Limp-opening a pot usually means 2 possible holdings (from someone who knows to play poker):

1.) medium or small PP
2.) suited connectors
( 3.) a deception with high PP - sklansky concept )

In your situation with these low Ms 1 + 2 make no longer sense, cause the implied pot odds are too low.

So even for a big stack it makes absolutely no sense to open-limp a pot. but from your post we can assume that he was a fishy player (open-limping with AQ and the big stack is terrible play).

I think your shove was very good. You had M=6 and in a few minutes id would be <5 with the increasing blinds.
I don't think you have zero FE as erc007 said, but specially players who have no idea of pot odds lay down hands after a push. BB call was correct of course.

erc007 · #6 08-21-2007, 03:49 AM

LOL...I just read your whole post...my original response i stopped reading after you listed the blinds and your stack size. Were there antes at this point? If so, how much?

sledghammer · #7 08-21-2007, 03:56 AM

Big stack open-limps his first hand at the table: you are well ahead of his range with K9o, and he may fold better hands. Push is fine.

erc007 · #8 08-21-2007, 04:19 AM

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Big stack open-limps his first hand at the table: you are well ahead of his range with K9o, and he may fold better hands. Push is fine.

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Using levAA's range for the big stack limper (which I think is reasonable) OP has 43% equity. For some reason I can't cut and paste Pokerstove's results into my relpy. FWIW, w K9o I don't see how you are ever 'way ahead' of a limper's range, given you only have 57% equity against a "random hand."

Tackleberry · #9 08-21-2007, 04:46 AM

He has not to be way ahead of limper´s range. If he is a 40% dog against Villain´s range he could make it even by getting FE and then a push is +EV as there´s dead money in the pot (from BB).

=> The push is great! Open-limpers in late stages have to be punished. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

erc007 · #10 08-21-2007, 05:06 AM

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He has not to be way ahead of limper´s range. If he is a 40% dog against Villain´s range he could make it even by getting FE and then a push is +EV as there´s dead money in the pot (from BB).

=> The push is great! Open-limpers in late stages have to be punished. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I you factor in any signif % of FE the shove is fine. If there are antes however, that does change things, in that it improves limper's odds to call, thus reducing your FE. Online at 400/800 antes would be 75 on stars. In my experience, live antes are bigger. Also, if BB is playing anywhere close to decent, he can't fold ATC here, so it's almost like a protected pot. Doing the math it's closer than I originally thought...but i still fold.