Is this a leak?

[PoliticalRefugee]

Well firstly he had TT so did have a set and I didn't hit so was out of the tournament.

I've started betting out in these situations more and find myself being put all in by crap like A4 which are aiming at 2 outs when I call. Obviously this is a product of playing $2 and $5 tourneys.

Anyway cheers guys.

[BAK]

[ QUOTE ]
Stack sizes seem to make betting slightly preferable to CR

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't a cash game

[/ QUOTE ]
Jeez, why do we still get such advice based on this crap

[/ QUOTE ]

Why be rude?

[Frank Catalani]

[ QUOTE ]
Stack sizes seem to make betting slightly preferable to CR

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't a cash game

[/ QUOTE ]
Jeez, why do we still get such advice based on this crap

[/ QUOTE ]

Because people just like you probably still make the same "crap" mistakes due to the lack of ability to distinguish plays that you should make in a cash game compared to a tournament.

[Pokerfarian]

Why would you play this hand differently?

[Frank Catalani]

Read my post again. I prefer to give insight rather than just criticize what other people have to say.

I'd like to hear your response as to why his play was correct.

[Pokerfarian]

I meant why would you play this hand different to how you'd play it in a cash game?

[BigAlK]

Pokerfarian,

I think if you read what Frank was responding to again it might be that you read too much into it. I suspect I did as well. Frank can correct me if I'm off base, but I don't think he was saying, "OMG, don't put your tournament life on the line here," like I thought. He's suggesting you lead out on the flop rather than check raise. This has the potential of taking down the pot now with what at the moment is quite possibly not the best hand (winning without showing down and being forced to hit one of your outs is not a bad result). However he also says getting it all in if you get raised is okay too. I might have missed it, but didn't see anything that was substantially different than the majority of responses in the thread. He was responding to a post that seemed to prefer the check-raise all-in line which is virtually guaranteed to make you hit one of you outs.

[Frank Catalani]

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerfarian,

I think if you read what Frank was responding to again it might be that you read too much into it. I suspect I did as well. Frank can correct me if I'm off base, but I don't think he was saying, "OMG, don't put your tournament life on the line here," like I thought. He's suggesting you lead out on the flop rather than check raise. This has the potential of taking down the pot now with what at the moment is quite possibly not the best hand (winning without showing down and being forced to hit one of your outs is not a bad result). However he also says getting it all in if you get raised is okay too. I might have missed it, but didn't see anything that was substantially different than the majority of responses in the thread. He was responding to a post that seemed to prefer the check-raise all-in line which is virtually guaranteed to make you hit one of you outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe I'm thinking about this hand so much in a day, but it really points out to situations we all deal with whether in a tournament or a cash game. A valid argument can be made for doing anything in this hand if you have AQh. I think the problem with people's reponses is that no one has been willing to really put the opponent on a range of hands. Here we just saw a shove with AQh because it was a nut flush/open ended straight draw. I think this type of hand will always pose different opinions.

By check/shoving you never allow yourself to see where you stand. You're simply playing your cards. While I may have respected the earlier consensus that c-bet, get raised, and shove is the right play, I'm having different thoughts on it now.

Here we have a player opening UTG with AQh, a call from middle position, and a flat call from chipleader at the table. After the check, the villain in this situation bets out 2/3 of the pot with the bigger stack at the table still left to act. It seems that no one gives the villain in this situation any credit for a hand, all we want to look at is how to play this draw. I've gone over the potential hand ranges I thought were viable for this situation already. I was truly shocked to hear that he had TT.

TT means that villain requested time to debate on 3 potential hands that beat him, QK, JJ, or 78. Why check/raise all in in that spot with either of those hands? Fear of the flush draw? Would someone really raise up front with QK or 78? The check/raise shove just didn't fit the mold for JJ or QK, and 78 doesn't seem to be an utg raise that early in a 9 handed tournament. Therefore, just like some earlier posters said, his push indicated draw and it made sense to call with a set of tens.

To repeat myself again, by leading out, you give yourself more information about the hand as well as being able to control pot size if villain only calls. You also allow yourself to fold if you miss on the turn or even see a free card if the turn is a blank (keep in mind i say this as if i did not know that villain had a set)

In a cash game I may check/shove there (not all the time obviously), but in a tournament I don't think the check/shove is the right play.

[BlueEcho]

Can anybody dispute this as about the tightest range we can give villian?

Board: 9h Tc Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.043% 50.82% 01.22% 25661 615.50 { AhQh }
Hand 1: 47.957% 46.74% 01.22% 23598 615.50 { JJ-99, AJs, KJs+, QJs, AJo, KJo+, QJo }

I'm not really opposed to leading the flop at all as it gives us another way to win the hand. However, getting the chips in as a favorite seems to be our ultimate goal most of the time right? Oh and the c/r also gives us a way to win the hand.

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stack sizes seem to make betting slightly preferable to CR

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't a cash game

[/ QUOTE ]
Jeez, why do we still get such advice based on this crap

[/ QUOTE ]

Because people just like you probably still make the same "crap" mistakes due to the lack of ability to distinguish plays that you should make in a cash game compared to a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Frank,

No offense, but you are wrong.

Edit: And as for this thread, Stumpy is right. But it really doesn't matter what we do. Whatever gets the chips in the middle is good.