Mixed up mixing up? Limit

[Mike]

I have been in some very loose limit games lately with some players who normally play higher sitting in. These games have been very loose with 5-8 seeing the flop. But I can't figure out the payoff in certain preflop action I am seeing?

I am seeing players playing hands such as 85o, 64o, A7o, in any position. When I first started seeing it, I thought okay, this player plays higher normally and they just want to have fun and don't mind blowing off some chips.

But I have seen so much of this play I started asking players why are they doing it? The common answer I am getting is, "To change things up".

I did not want to quiz anyone while we were playing, so I am hoping someone knows the reasoning behind this overly loose play? Personally I think they are either lying to themselves or they lied to me. Is some named NL player doing this and they are copy cat'ing the action at a limit table??

[AaronBrown]

You've got two different kinds of hands there, 85o and 64o can be good to play in this kind of game, but A7o might not be.

I can't answer why the game is loose, that is, why people play a lot of hands. But given that they do, there's a big payoff for hitting the flop. With any two non-matching cards, you have just under 1 chance in 3 of pairing, plus some chance of flopping a draw (up to more than 20% if you have suited middle connectors). Assuming you're playing cards that other people aren't, so you get your pairs and stronger hands and draws when other players miss.

All these are attractive hands to play given the pot odds in loose limit poker. After the flop, with a single other player, you can call to the river for 2.5 big bets. You could have four or even six times that amount in the pot preflop. If more than one other player contests with you after the flop, any drawing hand looks good.

The worst hands in this kind of game are the weaker strong hands, hands that are likely to be dominated. If you have A7o at a ten player table, the chance is only 1 in 4 that no one else has an Ace. There are 27 cards they could pair it with that dominate your hand.

In this kind of game you want a pair, or a hand with a great kicker, or two cards other people are unlikely to play, ideally with straight or flush possibilities.

[Mike]

Thanks, a lot better answer than mixing things up.

Going a little further it appears to me that a player ends up playing a lot of hands, which turns into paying more of the rake and the jackpot drop which turns the value gained into how favorable the cards fall during that session?

To each his own I suppose.

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got two different kinds of hands there, 85o and 64o can be good to play in this kind of game, but A7o might not be.

In this kind of game you want a pair, or a hand with a great kicker, or two cards other people are unlikely to play, ideally with straight or flush possibilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

In games when 5-8 players are seeing the flop I would tend to toss these medium gapped connectors when not suited unless playing from the blinds.

The importance of suitedness can't be underestimated with fields this big. It gives a player many extra opportunities to win and allows for more aggressive play if the flop does hit you.

You aren't playing these hands for pair strength. You'll be bet off these hands in big fields very often when you hold a pure five outer without other winning chances.

If you've not read it, Miller/Sklansky's Small Stakes Hold 'Em addresses these specific game conditions.

In games like this where most of the table is playing 60+% of their hands you'll have plenty of opportunites to play. You needn't lower your standards so far as to start playing 85o, 64o or A7o.

[Mike]

When I did some pencil and paper hands, where hero fit or folds flop on 6,4o there is about 1.5 BB win to play with. That is over ten hands - being generous with players seeing the flop and turn. It did not seem worth it because real life just does not work that way. So I thought there must be something I am missing. Of course that is with hero winning only the percentage of hands that the hand should win.

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
When I did some pencil and paper hands, where hero fit or folds flop on 6,4o there is about 1.5 BB win to play with.

[/ QUOTE ]

When running it in pokerstove the 85o and 64o are both at an equtiy deficit against random hands. The A7o shows the best equaity, but as Aaron has stated, in practice it plays badly in big fields.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,258,518 games 5.594 secs 224,976 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 13.288% 11.98% 01.31% 150787 16477.71 { random }
Hand 1: 13.262% 11.96% 01.30% 150568 16367.96 { random }
Hand 2: 13.260% 11.96% 01.31% 150462 16452.13 { random }
Hand 3: 14.976% 13.48% 01.50% 169681 18845.79 { A7o }
Hand 4: 09.261% 08.23% 01.03% 103569 13022.17 { 85o }
Hand 5: 09.454% 08.58% 00.88% 107939 11091.75 { 64o }
Hand 6: 13.252% 11.95% 01.31% 150375 16472.00 { random }
Hand 7: 13.246% 11.95% 01.31% 150345 16426.33 { random }

[AaronBrown]

I'm think more of something like this situation:

equity
Hand 0: 7.65% { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 7.68% { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 2: 7.65% { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 7.66% { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 4: 7.66% { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 5: 7.68% { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 6: 7.64% { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 7: 7.67% { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 8: 7.68% { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 9: 31.04% { 85o }

If everyone else is playing any hand with both cards T or higher, 85o wins 31% of the time.

This is unrealistic, in a loose game people play more than 15% of their hands. In this simulation, 18 of the 20 Broadway cards are dealt preflop, leaving only 2 to pair. It's just easy to do in Poker Stove because "any Broadway" is a selection. You would get similar results, but less dramatic, if everyone is playing 2/3's of their hands based on high cards. You would find playing your low cards gives you the advantage.

Your advantage is even better than this suggests. You know to fold if high cards show up on the flop, and that you're pretty safe if they don't. That's not true all the time, someone could hold A8o or A5o, but you still have the edge. If a K shows up on the flop, you know there are six or eight hands that would have seen the pot if they included a K, so you can fold if you can't beat KK. But when 8's and 5's show up on the flop, the other players don't know if you matched them or not. If they fold on all small card flops, you win, if they call on all small card flops, you win.

A7o is better than a Broadway against these hands, but it's only about half as good as 85o. It's the 7 that wins for it, if the A pairs it's too likely someone has an A with a better kicker.

[jfk]

aaron,

Interesting reply (and very different equity result).

To my way of thinking, your simulation may be more realistic in a high stakes hold 'em game where tight, selective players are more likely to share the same cards.

Based on this comment,

[ QUOTE ]
I have been in some very loose limit games lately with some players who normally play higher sitting in

[/ QUOTE ],

I'm assuming that the OP is describing a game of 20/40 or less in which his opponents truly may be playing any two cards and the 85o or 64o may not be anywhere near as live as in our simulation. With 5-8 limping I would assume that every pocket pair would be played and nearly any two suited cards. That should appreciably change the equity consideration by reducing the bunching effect of quality hands.

Is it a safe assumption to make that when 5-8 are seeing the flop regularly, mid-gapped offsuit connectors are nowhere near as equity rich as when one is in a tight game in which the field can be counted on to play hands which more closely correspond to the range which you've selected? Is not "random" a better representation for a typical low or mid stake 5-8 handed game than "any Broadway"?