Spirit Mountain Hand Play Along

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
I lucked out and he did indeed raise as we see.

What's my next move and why?
We have a bit pot already.
We have some edge.
Players are bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
I call or 3-bet depending on how many callers are caught in between and their likelihood of calling two more.

[CrMenace]

We're drawing to the 6 non-spade straight draws but that still gives us about 24% chance of making it by the river. So we'd need 4 callers out of the 6 vill's to make the 3-bet +EV. Plus, we have to discount the 24% because if we miss on the turn and check, or if either turn or river is a spade... I can't do the math but it seems like 3-betting is a bad decision.

I would speculate the the same logic made leading a bad decision (although less bad) as well.

[Befolder]

UTG calls, UTG1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, HJ calls, Smuggy (OTB) raises, Befolder(SB) looks and sees T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9x and call, BB calls, all call.

Flop (15sb, rake & jackpot dropped): J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Befolder bets, 1 fold, 5 calls, Smuggy raises, Befolder 3 bets, at least 3 calls including Smuggy.

I paused for a bit when it got back to me about whether I should just call because I needed about 4 callers. What swung my decision to 3 bet was that these players like to call and they were much more likely to do so in this huge pot.

I took the risk and raised again. I also want to give better 9s or Ts a chance to fold (just in case that would increase my chances of winning) or possibly even Smuggy. The last time I played a hand like this was when I flopped a set of 5s. I played it exactly the same.

Turn (15.5BB)
J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Befolder...

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG calls, UTG1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, HJ calls, Smuggy (OTB) raises, Befolder(SB) looks and sees T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9x and call, BB calls, all call.

Flop (15sb, rake & jackpot dropped): J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Befolder bets, 1 fold, 5 calls, Smuggy raises, Befolder 3 bets, at least 3 calls including Smuggy.

I paused for a bit when it got back to me about whether I should just call because I needed about 4 callers. What swung my decision to 3 bet was that these players like to call and they were much more likely to do so in this huge pot.

I took the risk and raised again. I also want to give better 9s or Ts a chance to fold (just in case that would increase my chances of winning) or possibly even Smuggy. The last time I played a hand like this was when I flopped a set of 5s. I played it exactly the same.

Turn (15.5BB)
J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Befolder...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad 3-bet. While you may have collected a tiny bit on the flop, you missed your chance to collect a lot more on the turn.

Now bet and see what happens.

[Befolder]

I agree that the 3 bet was a small mistake, but at that point I'm not planning to bet the turn so we don't know what we can collect on the turn since we haven't seen it yet.

Obviously our hand improves and gives us more ways to win after the turn card.

You wouldn't be betting if blank falls would you?
Also, what reasons do you bet?

[CrMenace]

TURN:

We now have four villains and a monster pot with 2PNK (which may have helped our opponents as much or more than us). I guess I bet, but I'm not happy. I probably only wrote that because I read Aaron's post.

If a blank fell, am I betting? No, probably not. We have no chance of taking the pot down right away with four loose villains, and there is no way we are best. We also don't have enough callers for value.

[Man of Means]

The postflop decisions are close. But 3betting the flop has made the pot a little bit bigger - increasing commitment psychology - so no one's folding the turn and now you have taken the initiative away from Smuggy and drastically reduced the turn c/r potential

Preflop is how teh donks plays. I know you can narrow his range to TT+/AK but does that make you more likely to call or fold in a limit game?

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop is how teh donks plays. I know you can narrow his range to TT+/AK but does that make you more likely to call or fold in a limit game?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't even consider playing this hand, the you are ignoring the size of the pot. It's far more important than any read I have on Smuggy.

[tyler_cracker]

befolder,

i like that you are vigorously defending hero's choices, but "size of the pot size of the pot size of the pot" is a little thin. whatever; the preflop discussion is done. fwiw i probably fold but i don't mind calling.

i definitely donk the flop, i don't think it's close (lol @ check/raising to face the field with two cold), and i don't really understand why babar wants to check.

3betting the flop is silly, and now you reap the whirlwind on this turn card. as someone (i don't remember who) once put it: "you have a draw. get out of the lead."

as played, i guess you have to bet the turn, but this board hits limper hands pretty hard and none of them are folding.

so basically i have nothing original to add. anyone want to pick me up from the airport tomorrow? i'll totally buy you a burrito.

[Nick D]

[ QUOTE ]
i definitely donk the flop, i don't think it's close (lol @ check/raising to face the field with two cold)

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your opinion, but since I am here to learn WHY these decisions I make are so bad, could you please enlighten me as to why this is such a bad move?

Are 6 clean outs to the cinch THAT good to where we want to start building a huge pot? I guess the pot is already large enough so flush draws are calling anyway, but I'd be honored if you'd fill me in (not being sarcastic.. like I said, I'm here to learn).

Thanks,
Nick