Ed Miller's Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...

[hyper_dermic]

going south with money is not allowed in public card rooms.

You cannot buy in for $50, double up, leave then come right back and play for $50.
There is usually a time penalty before they will seat you at another table.

At a private card room, you will get seriously hurt. Illegal gambling institutions are not filled with the nicest people. But there is a code. Ive never felt threatened walking out of a private card room with a pocket full of cash, because even though alot of the people are criminals, they respect a code of conduct. and i NEVER hit and run.
its just bad form.

This is hardly hostile to beginners, its just the truth.
Im trying to give the kid good advice. you dont play limit to learn how to play NL, and you dont learn SSS if u want to play deep stacks.

Its only gonna take longer to learn to play for real. Hes gonna be armed with some preflop ideas, but lost postflop.
how is that helping him?

From the sheer amount of his posts, it seems he wants to play for real.
If i took it the wrong way, then i sorry, go back to your SSS game.

My advice was to drop levels until he feels comfortable playing. and obviously move up when hes comfortable moving up. Losing money and taking hits is the way it works. If your afriad to take a hit then dont move up.

My big issue with people playing micro-short stacks is its an exploit. Its terribly "cheap" (please excuse the pun).
nothing more than a novelty.

Its almost like shooting angles in live poker.. sure, you can do it.. but its a real douchbag move. I dont think douchebaggery should be encouraged, lord knows theres already enough of it online.

I just feel this method is steering the person down the wrong path if they want to learn to play with deep stacks.

-hyp

[Teddie]

[ QUOTE ]
going south with money is not allowed in public card rooms.

You cannot buy in for $50, double up, leave then come right back and play for $50.
There is usually a time penalty before they will seat you at another table.

At a private card room, you will get seriously hurt. Illegal gambling institutions are not filled with the nicest people. But there is a code. Ive never felt threatened walking out of a private card room with a pocket full of cash, because even though alot of the people are criminals, they respect a code of conduct. and i NEVER hit and run.
its just bad form.


[/ QUOTE ]


Quality post. Criminals respect a code of conduct now?! lol, didnt know that. It's a shame they arent so respectful with the law.


Dont play in illegal cardrooms full of scum if they are likely to "gut you" for breaking there gay little code of conduct.

[hyper_dermic]

Yes, Criminals and gamblers usually do have an unwritten code of conduct. Its called being civil and respecting fellow players.

I know im sounding like a fuddy-duddy.. but the new breed of internet players seem to lack that respect of the game.

-hyp

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
You cannot buy in for $50, double up, leave then come right back and play for $50.
There is usually a time penalty before they will seat you at another table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, but what does this have to do with anything? No one's suggesting ratholing. Miller himself suggests continuing to play your now-deeper stack after doubling up, to gain experience. But if you misplay it and donk it off, at least you're donking off profit. Alternatively, cash out, go to a game you're more comfortable playing in, wait the hour, or what have you.

Perhaps your advice is intended to be helpful. But i'm always pretty suspicious of advice that ends up helping the sharks as the beginner loses money on "lessons". Whether short-stacking is a flaw in NLHE is a fair question, one that Miller touches on very briefly in GSIHE, but sort of irrelevant to the beginner. To the cardroom, deep stacked NLHE is a flawed game because the fish bust out too fast and there's not enough variance to keep the game stable.

To an extent I agree with the endorsement of moving down stakes and learning deeper stacks -- once the beginner knows basic preflop theory, at least. But that's mostly an online option. If you prefer to play B&M but aren't bankrolled for the lowest game on the board then you can either grind out some bankroll, practicing good preflop play as you go, or give up and go play online. Personally as boring as SSNL is, I'd much rather play it than grind online (although I am grinding online because I live 4 hours from the nearest poker room).

[hyper_dermic]

well, if the SS decides to stay around and play with the profits then they are ok in my book. From the content of some of the posts, it seemed like the norm was to win a pot then split.

If Miller suggest staying around to gain expeirence, then i can see the benifit for a very new player.
Otherwise the only lesson i can see being learned by SSS is preflop selection. If you can even call it a "lesson". One can commit beginner preflop selections to memory in 1 or 2 sessions.
After that, the player is left in the dark. With no Post-flop skills, they are going to get destroyed.

The SSS may instill a false sense of security. The new player will win some money playing supershort, then when playing deep, or even medium they find themselves making very costly mistakes on the turn and river.

I never had the problem with having to learn NL as a total beginner in a card room. When i started playing they didnt really spread NL. Mostly 7-Stud and Limit (Jersey loves its 7-stud) These games were a bit more beginner friendly, especially low-limit stud.

Now NL is where the $$ is, so i followed... to make the swtich i split my buy-ins into 2 or 3 smaller buy-ins rather than 1 large chunk. Smaller buy-ins are definatly good for people who arent made of money. Its the micro-buy ins that i think are dangerous. Only having enough for the flop before one is commited doesnt help you learn post-flop play.

Im not hating on online either... I live less than 2hrs away from AC, and there are TONS of illegal card rooms coming and going, yet i still grind it out online cuz i can do it anytime, anywhere. Not to mention i can sharpen my game by seeing countless hands at a fraction of the price. Online poker IS one of the greatist things to happen to the game, but with it comes a price.

(oh, and if you live pretty far from a legal poker room... maybe you should start an "underground" one in your area [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], or search one out... the ones around here run a tight ship. Free (good) food, all different stakes, rake isint bad, and the players are usually looser than in casinos.
Of course you always run the risk of getting Gutted if you go south [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

-hyp

[QuickLearner]

[ QUOTE ]
If Miller suggest staying around to gain expeirence, then i can see the benifit for a very new player.
Otherwise the only lesson i can see being learned by SSS is preflop selection. If you can even call it a "lesson". One can commit beginner preflop selections to memory in 1 or 2 sessions.
After that, the player is left in the dark. With no Post-flop skills, they are going to get destroyed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hyp, you've reached the essence of the SSS. Beginners don't have post-flop skills. That's why removing that aspect from the game helps them. And while they're sitting at the table folding their trash (and speculative hands that you might want to play) they get to see the rest of you play post-flop...and maybe begin the learning process. So why don't you let novices play in a way that saves some bankroll so that they don't learn to despise the game?

Short stackers aren't the players who should steam you. Rat-holers are. Nobody likes them.

[phydaux]

Actually, Ed's site goes into the SSS in great depth. NLH:T&P covers the benefits of playing short as well.

But like QL said, GSIH is well worth the few bucks it cost, no matter what version of hold'em you play.

[Dumb Fish x]

Wow this thread is going well.

Couple of points tho...

Hyper_dermic:

1. I appreciate your point of view. I think you're right actually, I don't feel I am learning too much about poker doing this. It's getting bloody boring too.

2. I can actually play poker. I'm not a rank beginner. I got my bankroll above $500 at one stage and have never been more than $60 under the break-even-line, and that was after I started this SS stuff (I must admit I wasn't playing it strictly to begin with). I am learning, I've read some great books, and played a hell of a lot of hands of the past 6 months. I am still not a great player, but it's not as if I just picked up a deck of cards.

3. "kid"? I'm 29 and a semi-professional rugby player. I'm a kid when it comes to poker, granted.

Thanks for you advice anyway mate, I appreciate it and I do see where you are coming from!

[Ratamahatta]

Dumb Fish x, you should PM ImsaKidd and send him all your hands. He is a shortstacker to and he's very good at it. He's always willing to help new players.