Eek. I have to fold here?

[Graveraver84]

This is the first time I've ever posted a hand summary so sorry if this is not correct


--


Hand #45472896-11 at SnG-0009f (No Limit Hold'em Sit and Go)
Started at 16/Aug/07 17:50:17

almalik76 is at seat 0 with 1520.
dmml10 is at seat 1 with 1410.
HERO is at seat 2 with 1330.
gaston1041 is at seat 3 with 2050.
johnielt29jl is at seat 4 with 1530.
chrisnj10 is at seat 5 with 2360.
hill__38 is at seat 6 with 1350.
scb mo is at seat 7 with 290.
broker12345 is at seat 8 with 1410.
1 Hot Mama is at seat 9 with 1750.
The button is at seat 2.

gaston1041 posts the small blind of 15.
johnielt29jl posts the big blind of 30.

almalik76: -- --
dmml10: -- --
HERO: Qc Qh
gaston1041: -- --
johnielt29jl: -- --
chrisnj10: -- --
hill__38: -- --
scb mo: -- --
broker12345: -- --
1 Hot Mama: -- --

Pre-flop:

chrisnj10 folds. hill__38 folds. scb mo calls.
broker12345 calls. 1 Hot Mama calls. almalik76
raises to 195. dmml10 calls. HERO calls.
gaston1041 folds. johnielt29jl calls. scb mo folds.
broker12345 calls. 1 Hot Mama folds.

Flop (board: 2h Ts 3d):

johnielt29jl checks. broker12345 goes all-in for
1215. almalik76 calls. dmml10 folds. HERO
folds. johnielt29jl folds.

Straight away I thought these guys both had overpairs. In fact I was pretty confident. So even if one had jacks, I had queens, so the other guy had at least kings?

This is a fold?


Tournament all-in showdown -- players show: White..

<font color="white"> almalik76 shows Jh Js.
broker12345 shows Jc Jd.


Turn (board: 2h Ts 3d 2s):

(no action in this round)


River (board: 2h Ts 3d 2s Kd):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

almalik76 has Jh Js 2h 2s Kd: two pair, jacks and deuces.
broker12345 has Jc Jd 2h 2s Kd: two pair, jacks and deuces.
</font>


Eek!!!

[knightmare_37]

It depends on the stakes really, if these are small stakes I'll call since it's an unconnected low rainbow flop. Sometimes the first all-in will have 88/99 and try to push out AK/AQ that didn't hit. If it's a $5 sng I think I'm good a lot of the time but in a $30 I'll probably fold as well.

[PantsOnFire]

That post is fairly shocking.

[xMars]

RAISE preflop

[choccypie]

Er...don't call preflop, raise it big.


[ QUOTE ]

Straight away I thought these guys both had overpairs. In fact I was pretty confident. So even if one had jacks, I had queens, so the other guy had at least kings?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's like looking for monsters under your bed. You can't always put other players on hands better than yours straightaway.

Since you didn't raise preflop to drive out crap hands, they could have anything. They could've hit 2 pair on the flop for all you know, and they both had you covered so if you didn't want to risk all your chips the only thing you can do is fold.

[pernicus53]

I think that the tendencies of the players are what's important. As mentioned above, they could've had a variety of things, and I'd add that they could have something that didn't have you beat. I think it's best to go by what you've seen them do before. To my mind, an all-in bet is usually pretty convincing as an indicator that they really have it, but if you have evidence of bluffing or overvaluing, that's different. It seems to me that you're always going to have a damned-if-I-do/damned-if-I-don't scenario and the only way to help lessen the blow and the hopelessness is to have info on players. Even then, there will always be instances of deciding to call b/c you don't want to be paranoid to the point of giving up pots and finding that they have it, and then making a laydown and either finding out they don't have it or having to wonder. And then that awful Kenny Rogers song goes off in your head: "you've got to know when to hold em/ know when to fold em." The other day, I busted out of a fake money Stars tournament betting my trip Queens into Jacks full of Queens (she had pocket Jacks with one Jack on the board--two Queens on board) and the only reason I regret it is that, looking back, I really know that I hadn't seen that player make loose, reckless bets before--she'd been fairly tight. Otherwise, I'd just say, that's poker--I've seen plenty of pros lose a big hand to a bigger hand, and they just say "that's life." They didn't have a good reason to be certain they were beat.

[Dumb Fish x]

Just a note that someone else actually raised pre-flop - and it was a big one, 6.5 X BB, and he called their raise.

Are you guys saying a re-raise is in order here preflop? I don't think so, especially following a larger than average raise from an earlier seated player...

[thoman8r]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a note that someone else actually raised pre-flop - and it was a big one, 6.5 X BB, and he called their raise.

Are you guys saying a re-raise is in order here preflop? I don't think so, especially following a larger than average raise from an earlier seated player...

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, it wasn't larger than average, it was a pot-sized raise, which is standard. Second, I'm re-raising here 100% of the time in these small stakes SNG's. You have to play your big hands agressively because of the fast moving blinds and you definitely do not want to be playing this pot 5-ways! Re-raise to isolate the original PFR and shove most flops that don't contain a K or A.

[Dumb Fish x]

Huh? I think you've misunderstood something.

[cheburashka]

First of all, OP--welcome to the forums and good luck. In the future, however, please convert your hands. A lot of people complain that the hand converter doesn't work, but so what. I just copy my hand histories into Microsoft Word and edit it so that it looks right. I figure that if I'm going to ask experienced people to comment on my hands, the least I can do is take about two minutes to make it easy to read them.

Second, just to be clear, the original raiser put 195 into a pot of 135, so it was 6.5BB and ~1.4 times the pot. Is this standard or larger than average? Standard on this site is generally considered to be 3BB (or 4BB, depending on whom you ask) plus 1BB per limper. In this case, the raise was 3.5BB plus 1BB per limper, so I'd have to say that's pretty darned standard.

What type of range raises three limpers from MP? Well, if the raiser is standard-to-tight, you'd have to think it's something like JJ+,AK,AQs, against which QQ is a 48-52 dog. If the raiser is standard-to-loose, it might be something like TT+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+, against which QQ is a 56-43 favorite. As for the guy calling, you have to wonder if he respects the gap concept or not. If he does, he is likely on a very tight range; if not, who knows?

So what does our hero do? If you think that the original raiser and caller are on a very tight range, you might call with the intention of pushing a favorable flop like three ragged low cards (which you in fact got, and you should definitely have shoved IMO), extracting huge value out of hitting a set, or getting out if an A or K show up on the flop.

Alternatively, if you think that (a) these guys are relatively loose, and (b) you think that one of them is capable of laying down her cards, then you could shove (with &gt;500 in the pot, any other reraise would be silly IMO) to try to isolate.

If this is anything like the tables I play, I'm very inclined to shove here, expecting to end up with two callers: one with something like AJ-AK and one with something like 99. Sometimes, I'll get surprised by by KK or AA (and sometimes, the AJ or 99 will suck out), but not often enough to make a shove here anything but very +EV.