Live SNG. What is the Ruling?

[bobpoker]

SNG down to 6 handed. UTG is not paying attention and still has cards. UTG+1 mucks out of turn starting a chain reaction of mucking around to SB before dealer or UTG realizes what is going on. Some mucked cards may be able to be identified. What is the ruling? Is the ruling any different in a cash game. Obviously, everyone should pay more attention. I would appreciate any imput from dealers or floorpersons.

[rja87]

I would imagine their cards are dead...seems that when people act out of turn their action normally stands.

[JulioYalil]

whoever mucked already, their cards are dead. everyone is responsible for protectin their cards and bein aware of what's goin on @ the table. plus, any cards that hit the muck are dead automatically. it's still utg's turn and it is up to the bb to check or call or whatever.

[Photoc]

The hand is dead. You dont get to see what the entire table is going to do and then decide. PROTECT YOUR HAND/ACTION at all times! First rule in poker.

Funny thing is, TDA Rules have nothing stating what substantial action is, but these came from Robert's Rules.

AGAIN, rules are always house dependant. IF a house says "We use TDA" and there are rules that aren't TDA in there, then they DON'T use TDA rules, otherwise those would be the ONLY rules, not additions, subtractions, ect.. That is what's called "house rules".

[ QUOTE ]
12. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act.

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[Al_Capone_Junior]

It's always a quagmire when thus happens. The super-nits want utg's hand to be dead, even tho they are usually the morons who jumped the gun (or jumped on the bandwagon). Despite the fact that everyone jumped the gun, or that utg or the dealer or both weren't paying attention, utg should not lose their right to act. If you were to disallow utg to act here because of "significant action" behind them, you open up the opportunity for players to intentionally jump the gun, trying to kill the hand of a slower player in EP. Now if this player were constantly acting real slow, it might be different. In this case, utg gets to act despite the irregularity.

Al

[TMTTR]

[ QUOTE ]
The hand is dead. You dont get to see what the entire table is going to do and then decide. PROTECT YOUR HAND/ACTION at all times! First rule in poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

The decision here is far more subjective. If the player(s) after UTG+1 turbo mucked before UTG could say something and UTG had been fairly attentive to the game, his hand should not be dead. If he is facing away from the table talking to his gfriend or wolfing down a cheeseburger and only looks back after a raise or after BB has checked to SB's completion, he is too late. Circumstances falling in between lie in the judgment of the floor. (Dealer should have also known where the action was and stopped the muckers faster.)

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were to disallow utg to act here because of "significant action" behind them, you open up the opportunity for players to intentionally jump the gun, trying to kill the hand of a slower player in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what penalties in tournaments are made for. If a player is intentionally doing this, it's penalty time + KITN by the floor, simple as that.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you were to disallow utg to act here because of "significant action" behind them, you open up the opportunity for players to intentionally jump the gun, trying to kill the hand of a slower player in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what good, attentive dealers are made for. If a player is intentionally doing this, it's penalty time + KITN by the floor, simple as that.

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[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
It's always a quagmire when thus happens. The super-nits want utg's hand to be dead, even tho they are usually the morons who jumped the gun (or jumped on the bandwagon). Despite the fact that everyone jumped the gun, or that utg or the dealer or both weren't paying attention, utg should not lose their right to act. If you were to disallow utg to act here because of "significant action" behind them, you open up the opportunity for players to intentionally jump the gun, trying to kill the hand of a slower player in EP. Now if this player were constantly acting real slow, it might be different. In this case, utg gets to act despite the irregularity.

Al

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a little bit more to this rule. It exists so someone can't let the action pass them by. A good rule of thumb is if the dealer has the action in the right place he will protect the player's action and tell the out of turn players to stop. If he tells them to stop and they keep playing anyway it is just out of turn, but if nobody knows UTG is still in the hand his hand is dead.