AA in a no blind game

[tommo]

[ QUOTE ]
With PF capped at 2% AA can never open shove flop profitably. The odds of outflopping AA with 2 random cards is somewhere in the vicinity of 1:20.

[/ QUOTE ]

what percentage of random hands beat AA on a 222 flop?

[jackflashdrive]

There are 50 cards left in the deck, and 1 of them is a 2. If I am dealt 1 card my odds are 1 in 50; 2 cards my odds are 1:25. If AA open-pushes this flop for $1K he picks up my $20 24/25 (= +$480) and loses $1000 1/25 (-$1000). On average AA loses $520/25 = $20 per hand with this move.

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
In your example you play any 2 cards, thus the AA player should know your hand range exactly as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMFG wowowow rooooooofl.

[DJ Sensei]

hey maybe thats why nobody plays games without blinds or antes

[grando]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In your example you play any 2 cards, thus the AA player should know your hand range exactly as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMFG wowowow rooooooofl.

[/ QUOTE ]

<random hand>

[Huggy]

good work tommo.

we need more 2+2 brain boxes to solve this equation if we are EVER going to prove poker is a skill game !

We all need to pool our brain resources and work together, we can defeat the ignorant american government !

[jackflashdrive]

tommo,

I think you should ignore the haters who've made an appearence in this thread to either denigrate the original purpose or mock certain comments that seem wrong to them (but where they probably don't have a crystal clear understanding of why the comment is wrong or they would bother to type a few words of explanation).

I can understand why someone would say of a thread that it contains a lot of bad advice, misunderstands a situation, etc. But if the thread is pointless, then how pointless is your own life that you have nothing better to do than join a thread to say 'this is not worth my time.' I have a hard time believing such a person's time is worth anything at all.

I happen to think your hypothetical is interesting, and that it could be quite useful for two people to practice playing against each other in this way (where one is always dealt AA and the other always a random hand and there are no blinds but the random hand has to pay a fixed amount preflop if he wants to see a flop). I think this sort of game could be great practice for live play -- picking up tells in other players, minimizing your own tells, etc.

I think your main misunderstanding is that when you say that you (who are only playing AA) know my range because it is [random], you are assuming that I am betting and calling without any knowledge of my own cards, as if I just left them face-down on the table. In this case you are exactly right that you have just as much information about my hand as I have about yours. However, once I see my cards and take different actions on the basis of my cards, my range is no longer [random] and I believe that I have a decided advantage over AA.

[Atropos]

Here is what I think:

Obviously one set of optimal preflop strategies for both players it to always fold preflop. Because there are no blinds it's exactly 0 EV.



Now consider this scenario:

"Both players have exactly the same range. To make it simple: Player1 only raises AA and Player2 only calls with AA. Player1 is always out of position preflop and postflop.

Let's assume that postflop both players to play optimal strategies."

The only way this scenario can be +EV for one of the two players is if position matters. Since their preflop range is the same, their postflop strategies are optimal, the position is the only difference. It is impossible to prove, but very likely, that in this scenario the player who
has position will have an edge. Therefore this would be +EV for the player in position.

Now we have one optimal preflop strategy (always fold) which is 0 EV for both players, and an optimal postflop strategy, which is -EV for the player out of position and +EV for the player in position.

Can the player out of position create a preflop strategy that is +EV for him to counterbalance the opponents postflop advantage? I think this is highly unlikely, since the player in position could simpy call with the exact same range as Player1 and get his postflop advantage without a preflop loss.

Therefore, any strategy where player1 does not fold every hand preflop cannot be optimal --> Fold everything is the optimal strategy for player1.

What the optimal strategy for player2 would look like preflop is impossible to answer, since we dont have any idea how the preflop strategies influence the optimal postflop strategies.

[Triumph36]

jackflashdrive:

pretty easy to see that if you 'raise' every hand, you are going to lose money if they call with even two different hands.

tommo -

you're forgetting just how good your reverse implied odds are in a game like this. surely the AA player can come up with a way of betting that wins him the most when he is ahead and loses him the least when he is behind. there is still an optimal bluffing % in this game, too - there must be flops and turns where AA won't continue.

[tozzy]

wait, i didnt read all of your post, but did you just say position matters when 2 player play nothing but AA?