More FPS with top set (1/2)

[Aisthesis]

Interesting...

I'll just give my first response before looking at the commentary: While I really like a flat call with your hand if it's HU, I think, despite losing one of your fill-up outs, I'd normally raise max with even one extra player in.

While you take away 1 of your own outs, the extra players in indicate that it's very likely the draws are taking away a lot of THEIR outs, too. Admittedly, it's also not unlikely that maybe UTG (or someone, anyway) has top 2 or another set, which is even worse for your improvement. But I think the dead money plus the reduction of outs for your opponents makes this worth potentially playing for stack.

The mini-raise is also an interesting idea, though. You might get a worse set or AKJ with flush draw to push back. I don't think it's bad, but I'm not sure it's really any better than just raising max.

[Aisthesis]

True, but it's only about half the deck, and this way you're getting 3:1 since there's no way anyone is laying down.

I mean, I still think potting is roughly equally good (not sure which is really "better" in the end), but I don't mind this play either in this particular situation.

[Big Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
get in against one player with a wrap and another with a flush draw where I'm also not in great shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're in great shape in this spot. In fact, its one of the best spots you can get and still get stacking action, except when they are drawing deadish.

gl

bdd

[ZingyDNA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
get in against one player with a wrap and another with a flush draw where I'm also not in great shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're in great shape in this spot. In fact, its one of the best spots you can get and still get stacking action, except when they are drawing deadish.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this. He only has top set w/ no redraw. Anyone who's flushing and/or wrapping is very much alive. I guess his point to make the min raise is that since drawing hands are calling anyway he might as well suck the whole table in.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
get in against one player with a wrap and another with a flush draw where I'm also not in great shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're in great shape in this spot. In fact, its one of the best spots you can get and still get stacking action, except when they are drawing deadish.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this. He only has top set w/ no redraw. Anyone who's flushing and/or wrapping is very much alive. I guess his point to make the min raise is that since drawing hands are calling anyway he might as well suck the whole table in.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has a redraw to a full house on the flop.

[Elrazor]

[ QUOTE ]
No one at all liked this? I really thought someone would.

[/ QUOTE ]

i did

[ QUOTE ]
holding the ten in addition to my top set, so it's going to be really hard to run into middle set or top two or anything I'd get in really great against

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

[ QUOTE ]
If I make a real raise I probably leave myself one on one with a single strong draw that's about a 55/45 favorite over me or get in against one player with a wrap and another with a flush draw where I'm also not in great shape. This way, I get some money in way ahead, leave about a PSB to push hard on a safe turn where the strong draws will be significantly behind and may not have odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

against most players at these levels its 'standard' to felt these type of hands on the flop and get yourself in a coinflip - i prefer to vary my play with a mixture of felting and calling on the flop with top set, ditto wraps - it all depends on game conditions, reads, stack sizes, history and a number of other minor details

of course it might be a leak, i dunno, but it works for me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[wazz]

I was playing a homegame last night with a 2+2er, and despite hating this line at first I've come to like it as a once in a while play. By raising pot or near-pot you're often folding out hands that might otherwise pay you off here, like top two or bottom set. Raising the minimum looks superstrong but you'd normally (like 90%+) be raising pot or near pot with a strong two-way nut draw or the current nuts, so you induce much worse play on the turn, while keeping in hands that either interfere with each other or are drawing dead against you.

I would definitely say that this play is much better with people who you play with regularly, and are at least aggro. If nothing else, we're reopening the betting here.

[pete fabrizio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No one at all liked this? I really thought someone would.

[/ QUOTE ]

i did

[ QUOTE ]
holding the ten in addition to my top set, so it's going to be really hard to run into middle set or top two or anything I'd get in really great against

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

[ QUOTE ]
If I make a real raise I probably leave myself one on one with a single strong draw that's about a 55/45 favorite over me or get in against one player with a wrap and another with a flush draw where I'm also not in great shape. This way, I get some money in way ahead, leave about a PSB to push hard on a safe turn where the strong draws will be significantly behind and may not have odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

against most players at these levels its 'standard' to felt these type of hands on the flop and get yourself in a coinflip - i prefer to vary my play with a mixture of felting and calling on the flop with top set, ditto wraps - it all depends on game conditions, reads, stack sizes, history and a number of other minor details

of course it might be a leak, i dunno, but it works for me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not averse to this line of reasoning for slow-playing top set, but it's much more applicable when an aggressive player has potted into you and will probably pot the turn again and would only call a flop raise with a good draw.

As for the hand in the OP, I hate it. I think just potting is best, but even calling is better than minraising. At least that way someone might try to squeeze the weak lead and/or the bettor may lead into you on a favorable turn.

[Big Dave D]

Top set is the nuts in this hand. It does surprisingly well versus two draws.

gl

bdd

[CastlesMadeASand]

i know people bitch at people who complain about preflop in omaha, but ill do it anyways. i dont really like preflop.