Iso push or flat call with 77 in EP facing shorties shove?

[Hoop Addict]

$70 live tourney, 60 runners, down to about 27 or 28... table of 9.

Just after the 1st break, blinds at 200/400. I'm UTG+1 with 77. Lagish UTG shoves his shortstack for about 1500 total. I have ~9500 & would be a top 5 stack currently.

My table is generally passive, and I've only shown down strength, while UTG is fresh new to the table (I know he's laggy from previous & online experience with him). All other stacks at the table are between 3K and 6K with SB has 4600 and the BB (who is very tight) has about 4K.

Am I calling the 1500 or just iso-shoving? If I call 1500, would I be committed to calling, say a 5K stack if they push over me?

[levAA]

looks like a push or fold to me.

as you discribed the table as passive and the OR as lag it's a push i think (though i hate these decisions in early position).

[JammyDodga]

I think I fold, its not very often you are better than a coin flip to OR here, and sometimes well behind. So by pushing you are putting most of your stack at risk and all you win is a 55:45 coinflip (with some dead money from the blinds)

So even if everyone does fold, you are only probably +EV 300 chips or so. Including the risk of someone calling you who has you dominated - which is fairly high from this position - makes it -ev i think.

[levAA]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold, its not very often you are better than a coin flip to OR here, and sometimes well behind. So by pushing you are putting most of your stack at risk and all you win is a 55:45 coinflip (with some dead money from the blinds)

So even if everyone does fold, you are only probably +EV 300 chips or so. Including the risk of someone calling you who has you dominated - which is fairly high from this position - makes it -ev i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes you are right - just did the math with SNGW.

fold

[lijkie]

It looks to me like an allin bet at first, but then again do you wanna risk a lot of chips on 77 and this small pot?!?

If the table is passive why not just call the allin and hope they all see your call as a stenghty call and fold, but if you get raised big i'll just fold the hand immediatly. So I'd say what do you "feel" you should do at this live table...........

[JammyDodga]

[ QUOTE ]

If the table is passive why not just call the allin and hope they all see your call as a stenghty call and fold, but if you get raised big i'll just fold the hand immediatly. So I'd say what do you "feel" you should do at this live table...........

[/ QUOTE ]

This is appalling advice. Firstly, its highly likely the BB will come along for the ride, and 77 three ways isnt very good.

Secondly, you want to put a big chunk of you stack at risk for the chance of coinflipping at best, and then fold to a re-raise? Jees, I want to play with you if you are going to start giving you chips away for free like this.

Depending on your read, if the table was very tight I could see an all in, but a flat call is bad. Push or fold and fold is better.

[lijkie]

[ QUOTE ]
This is appalling advice. Firstly, its highly likely the BB will come along for the ride, and 77 three ways isnt very good.

Secondly, you want to put a big chunk of you stack at risk for the chance of coinflipping at best, and then fold to a re-raise? Jees, I want to play with you if you are going to start giving you chips away for free like this.

Depending on your read, if the table was very tight I could see an all in, but a flat call is bad. Push or fold and fold is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totaly just fold no agrue there, but my advice is if you have some read on the table, that they will fold to your call, why not try that. Besides your in position on the BB, so do not worry to much about him. I am more worried that you will walk in to a better hand in later position when pushing?!? It's a very risky one and just calling is less risky in my opinion, don't you agree? There is no argue about 77 three handed. Thats bad....

[JammyDodga]

I'm not sure, against passive tables, you want to be agressive, not passive as well, and I think flat-calling would be. This gives a passive player a perfect chance to see a flop without risking his whole stack, something you dont want to allow with 77.

Witha big stack and a passive table, you should be putting players to a decision for their whole stack pretty much every hand you are in, not give weak players a chance to play safe and outdraw you.

You might face a call behind by hands like KQ, A10/AJ, 88, 99 which might fold to a push.

I also don't think position would help you very much with 77 if the BB calls because one player is already all in.

The other thing is, you might fold the best hand if someone pushes if they have AQ and AK.

I was perhaps a little harsh in my last post, but I realy think calling is pretty bad here.

77 isn't that good, you should have no porblem laying it down if you can't find a profitable play.

[lijkie]

I agree when thinking about it a bit more. Pushing or folding is better. My tendency would be folding....

[Hoop Addict]

I didn't actually consider folding (perhaps foolishly). UTG is pushing super-wide. His range IMO is 22-AA (I think he shoves AA in his position, because flatting would send alarm bells to everyone else), Ax, K9+, QJ, QT & probably other suited connectors.

Anyhow - as it played out, I called (I should've taken longer to make a decision, and it turns out, I basically made the wrong one & regretted it after), folded to the SB who pushes for 3100 more (4600 total).

Now I've got a decision again. I figure it's worth a gamble because building a stack now means I can abuse the (mostly) passive table, and only top 6 pay anyhow. So I gambooool.

UTG has Jd9d, SB has AQo.

Flop was J Xd Xd and turn & river bricked. So I won the sidepot for a small profit, the SB was gone & the aggro UTG had a semi-decent stack.

In hindsight (and as I discussed with UTG after the hand played out) I think in that situation again, I'd probably re-shove over the top.