10NL: basic pair handling

[gedanken]

So I've learned from 2+2 to bet pairs preflop, hoping to make a killing with a set. But do I cbet them?


villain is laggish 61/28/3.7, I'm playing tight, ~14/7?, only 20 hands together

bonus question: should I 3bet after a minraise with this PP?

also, how does better position impact my moves here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($7.10)
Hero ($9.60)
BB ($3.60)
UTG ($13.65)
MP ($16.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $0.2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.6</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.40.

Flop: ($1.30) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.75</font> yes?

[Mr_Pathetic]

I think with this line you are going to get raised off your hand on the flop. PF sometimes I call here sometimes I 3bet all depends on if villains passive postflop. With agg of 3.7 for this villain I think I am probably calling preflop to maybe hit a set and stack his TP or overpair type hand. If he folds to flop bets/cbets often enough then this line is ok but if the guy is really aggro postflop you'll be getting raised here very often to take this line OOP.

So in summary I think you should just call preflop and float or hit a set and let him stack himself if he is very aggro postflop and not folding to cbets since you are OOP. If you are in position then maybe 3bet and raise his flop donk bet or float him to turn and try and take it there and take same line with set for balancing.

[whyzze]

against a player like this, there isn't much reason to 3 bet because he is calling with mostly anything especially when you only make it .6 preflop.

I personally would just call for set value against this type of player...but If I were to 3bet, it would be to at least $1. I definately cbet here...about 80-90% of pot.

[bored]

I'd 3bet more if I were going to 3bet. On the flop, cbet more like 1.

I'd call pf and c/r the flop vs this guy though.

Edit: Also, you aren't in position this hand.

[Student Caine]

My experience at 10NL is that villains read less than pot bets after a pre-flop raise as weakness - especially villains with 3.7 AF. If I cbet here it is a pot size bet.

If I get minraised here then I am either going to throw in a pot size bet (I wonder if we shouldn't just shove it here? does his calling our pot size bet commit us?) or fold. His minraise could mean anything "I have a huge hand", "I have no hand, but you appear to be weak", "I have a medium strength hand", or "I hit the wrong button and just meant to call". It really tells us nothing.

One could (and I will when I am feeling weak-tight) simply call the min-raise and try to get to the river as cheaply as possible. Given the draws and the weakness of your pairs I think that this is a bad play here.

[gedanken]

logic of the preflop raise was to maximize profit from set. If I don't raise pre, extracting value from the set will be hard. Sets rely on the "sneaky factor": "why is he betting this raggedy board, must be whiffed overs". Plus, you can stack your opponent only if there's enough in the pot to start with.

I'm not raising more because that kills my implied odds. And I don't want him folding. Calling for only $.20 seems too small a pot, and doesn't generate that sneaky factor.

I admit that this cbet is light, but normally I aim for ~70% of the pot (same as my value bets). Is that not standard? I almost never bet pot or more.


Clarifications: I know I'm not in position this hand, I'm asking if my actions would be different IF I were. Also, reference to a minraise was preflop, making the standard raise with a PP awkward.

thanks for the suggestions. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just understand.

[mvdgaag]

Sets rely on implied odds... Don't get too much in before the flop.

If you are playing this hand on agression instead of for set value you want position on the original raiser.

This player seems like one you don't want to bluff... Your cbet should be for value most of the time. If we're betting for value against a loose opponent you might as well bet big.

I prefer calling pre and on a flop like this i like a c/c and reevaluate on turn. Even if he bets you are still ahead of his range, but there is no reason to stop him from bluffing at you.

[filsteal]

Raising more does not kill your implied odds, it just reduces them a bit. However, raising more carries the following two advantages:

1. It makes it more likely your opponent will fold preflop. This is not a bad thing.
2. It means you win more money when your opponent calls preflop and folds to your cbet.

See, when you 3bet a small-mid PP preflop, you're essentially running a kind of semibluff. Most of the time you're not going to hit a set, and you'd like to take it down preflop or on the flop, because you sure as hell can't go to showdown. But sometimes you'll also spike a set and stack your opponent, as a nice backup plan.

[mvdgaag]

filsteal is right. Betting as a semibluff is when you expect not to have the best hand at the moment, but are not drawing dead. A small pair is not a great hand to semibluff, because we only have two outs. Since a semibluff gets its value from folding equity combined with the chance to make a hand you need a lot of FE to profitably semibluff with a small pair.

Having him fold preflop is a great result indeed, but he seems quite loose and we likely win more by trying to make a set cheaply.

Same goes for a flop bet. This is not an opponent to (semi)bluff very often IMO, because we have only 2 outs and almost no FE.

We want to valuebet the best hand or check/call here IMO.