WA/WB out of position

Newman30 · #1 08-07-2007, 02:47 PM

I’m have played poker a little less than a year and I am new to this forum.

I want some advice from you clever heads on how to play in a WA/WB oop situation. I “often” find myself in these kinds of situations, and I don’t know how to play them optimally.

I have had a lot of situations where I have a high pair for example KK and the flop comes AAx, rainbow or QQx, rainbow. I am the preflop aggressor in almost all of these situations.

What should I do here? Should I check or should I bet the flop? If I check and I am up agaist an aggressive player, he is very likely to take the pot away form me with a bet on the flop, which I will have to call, and a big bet on the turn which I will have to fold. On the other hand, if I bet I can very easily loose some extra money, as in the hand below, and the result is the same, I will have to fold to any substantial action. An argument for betting the flop is that it is very rare that my opponent hit trips, so why not bet with a medium good hand, and see if you can take the pot right here and now, instead of giving your opponent a chance to steal the pot. Still i don't feel great about betting the flop.

Here is a good post on how to play WA/WB in position http://www.cardschat.com/f49/wa-wb-concept-76525/. I think this is sound advice.

Here is an example of WA/WB oop hand that I have recently played. I have no read on the player in CO (villain).

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00/$2.00 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

CO (310.00)
Button (61.00)
SB (351.35)
BB (124.74)
MP2 (194.50)
MP3 (216.10) (Hero)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
1 folds, Hero raises to $8.00, CO calls $8.00, 3 folds,

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $19 )
Hero bets $10.00, CO calls $10.00,

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $39 )
Hero checks, CO bets $20.00, Hero calls $20.00,

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $79 )
Hero checks, CO bets $52.00, Hero folds,

You are very welcome to comment on this specific hand. But I am much more interested in some general overall guidelines for what to do in a WA/WB oop situation. It would be nice if you could differentiate on a situation where there is a pair on the flop and you have an underpair, and where there is only one overcard and you have an underpair. I you don’t bother to differentiate it's ok, just give some general guidelines.

PantsOnFire · #2 08-07-2007, 03:26 PM

The key to hands like this is to have a history of your play. And that history should have some tricky play in it. So a check on the flop could mean you either have something like AK or JJ or it could mean you have KK. This would make villain leary.

If you checked and he bet that $10 and you called, that might slow him down by making him suspicious. The turn looks like a brick so if you check again, he will very likely only bet with an A.

C-bet history is also a factor. You need to have shown in the past you can raise pf and then bet either a whiff or a hit flop. This then compliments the fact that you can check or bet a hit flop.

If you are confident that villain is aware of your capability to mix up your play, then his actions will likely tell you if you are beat.

Another thing to do is add a checkraise to your arsenal. Then your OOP checks will get more respect and you can have some control over the pot size even OOP.

Newman30 · #3 08-08-2007, 10:16 AM

What if you don't have any history with villain. What do you do then? Often this is the case...

There must be some generel guidelines, for a situation without a lot of history. A bit like this http://www.cardschat.com/f49/wa-wb-concept-76525/

Right now I like checking most, and calling a bet on the flop, but folding to significat action. I don't really dislike the hand above. Betting on the flop, calling the turn, folding on the river is also ok in my opinion.

Come on - there must be some others who has some opinion about this subject :-)

PS: I c-bet very much and checkraise is a part of my arsenal, but rarely when I am the preflop agressor. I prefer just to bet out when I hit, eigther a hard hit, or a draw or a middlepair or nothing, c-betting maybe 60% of the time.

PantsOnFire · #4 08-12-2007, 07:05 PM

This situation sucks when OOP and no history. You are basically flying in the dark. The only info you have is your current situation like whether this is a cash game, deep stacks, tourney situation, table stakes, etc.

I think there are several ways this can go and none of them are perhaps better than the other. For example, you might want to get to showdown as cheap as possible to see what cards villain was playing and how he played them. You might have to pay some bets to do that but I guess you have to ask yourself if it's worth it.

Or you may want to check/fold. In this case, you should use that information for the next time you are pf raiser OOP and actually hit the flop. Now you could go for a c/r if opponents have been observing. Or if you miss, you could bet out now and have more fold equity since they might give you more credit.

So while your first play might not win you any money, you can use the way you played in future hands to either steal with a cbet or win an extra bet with a c/r.

If you are deep stacked, you might want to set up an aggressive table image and fire multiple bullets or go for a big c/r right off the bat.

The worst time for this to happen is to be moved to a new table in a tourney when you have a low M. You have no room to manouver. This might strengthen the thought that it is probably better to play push or fold pf to avoid these OOP situations in late tourney play.

And you're right that it would be nice if other's joined in here. If you get no more help, you may need to post this in a ring game forum or the MTT forum.

aaokwitme · #5 08-12-2007, 10:08 PM

IN the link you posted he seems to prefer the stop and go play here, and I would agree that, that is the best play in this spot most times. As you know there are always many different factors to check before you make this play or any other. So, simply check the factors and play accordingly.
If you want me to list the factors I will, but I think you most likely know them all. Even if you dont have a history with this player you can still check known factors.

Newman30 · #6 08-15-2007, 09:46 AM

I don't know about the term stop and go. But I know what he prefers (this is in position ofcourse): Check the flop, call a bet on the turn, check the river or fold to a big riverbet.

I agree with him. Sometimes I would bet the turn if villian checks it.

This problem is oop though. It's a bit different.

Still further comments would be greatly appreciated.