Bet Sizing: The Foundation

ajmargarine · #1 08-14-2007, 05:57 PM

A foundation is something that you build upon. It is the primary building block. It is the sturdy undergirding that supports the house that is built upon it. In regards to bet sizing, the following is the foundation from which you size your bets. You either size your bets by the actual foundation or size them by a derivative of the foundation.

FOUNDATIONAL LAW: With 100bb stacks in a PFR'd pot, if you size your bets effectively you can get all-in with 3 streets of betting.

What do I mean? You start with 100bb's effective and PFR to 4bb and get called by SB. Pot is 9bb's, 96 behind. On the flop, you bet 8bb's and get called. Turn pot is 25bb's with 88 behind. On the turn you bet 22bb's and get called. River pot is 69bb's with 66bb's behind, setting up a river push/PSB. This is the foundation upon which all your betting should flow.

Example hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($47.15)
Hero ($50.00)
MP ($47.90)
CO ($25.05)
Button ($29.45)
SB ($50.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, SB calls $1.75, BB folds.

Flop: ($4.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Alright, Hero flops a set on a dry flop. He should get action from an Ace, 33, and maybe one call from a hand like TT-KK maybe if they played it weakly PF. 33 is felting pretty much no matter what we do. TT-KK may look us up once no matter what we bet. The thing we want to do is give AT-AK the chance to stack off to us. So... , Hero bets $4.50, SB calls $4.50.

Turn: ($13.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Helpful hint about bet sizing (a general rule): if you can bet 1/3 of the effective stacks on one street, you'll be able to get AI on the next street. That is our goal here. We're not going to mess around, we want to take his Ax hands to ValueBetCity. Stacks are $43.50. We need to size our bet here (THINK about it) to set up betting on the next street. We want him to have less than a PSB left on the river but also optimize our sizing to get him to call two more times. So... Hero bets $12, SB calls $12.

River: ($37.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero pushes all-in for $31.50....

That is the foundation when thinking about sizing your bets. And you adjust off of that. Can he really call off his stack given the board texture? Is he a station? Is he a nitty TAG? Is our hand/flop more conducive to maybe getting 80% of our stacks in the middle? Do we need to look at pot control sometime during the hand? etc etc etc.

GETTING A STACK IN THE MIDDLE STARTS WITH THE FLOP BET SIZE. If you size that bet right, you can get it in in 3 streets; flop, turn and river.

3b pots

The same foundation is found in 3-bet pots. Except we deal with different streets. It's still 3 streets total to get all-in, but the streets are now preflop, flop and turn.

Example hand:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $32.50
Hero (BB): $50.00
UTG: $25.60
MP: $50.00
CO: $49.25
BTN: $50.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
3 folds, BTN raises to $1.75, SB folds, Hero raises to $6.50, BTN calls $4.75

Flop: ($13.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Alright, we've already had one street of betting when we got an extra $4.75 in preflop. We can get it in with 2 more streets of betting here if we size this bet properly. We should play AA and AsKs the same here mostly. Hero bets $10.50, BTN calls $10.50.

Turn: ($34.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero pushes all-in for $33...

We bet the flop here and if he pushes we happily call. We bet the turn with FE vs the bottom of his range which is anything less than QQ. We can play AA the same way or vary from our foundational play on the turn as long as preflop and flop look like Boomboomboom, we are getting all-in here sir, do you care to come along.

EDIT: Again, this is just the foundation. Make sure you read Triggerle's post below.

Dumle · #2 08-14-2007, 06:00 PM

Nice post and an important concept. Sweet.

Dumle

Ikaika · #3 08-14-2007, 06:28 PM

Great post. Shows how easy it is to win a stack with a big hand if you bet properly.

gatorch0mp · #4 08-14-2007, 06:28 PM

Isn't this one of the main topics of "Professional No Limit Holdem"?

In any case, these bet-sizing concepts have helped my game tremendously. Decisions are so much easier...

Lately I've been buying in for ~60BB... which for me has been ideal for setting up all-in's by the river with my premium holdings... with typical 3X-4X preflop raises. When my stack gets huge, then I adjust my pre-flop raise size depending on my plan of attack.

But yeah... bet-sizing has led to a fundamental shift on how I play the game... and I'd like to think it's been a positive shift...

-G

StubbornRussian · #5 08-14-2007, 06:29 PM

I often see advice in posted hands to pot the flop and bet closer to pot on the turn and such. But if you are raising alot and cbetting flops you usually can't afford to cbet close to the pot size and be as profitable. Should we be mixing in some potsized cbets with air to allow this type of betting to be less suspicious?

For instance, I normally cbet just about every ace high dry flop normal or even a little smaller since most villains call or raise with an ace or fold if they dont have an ace. So if I all of a sudden pot this same type of board it looks crazy suspicious. But I guess AK, AQ or AJ still couldnt get away very easily but it would give all villains at the table a read on me for the future.

ajmargarine · #6 08-14-2007, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this one of the main topics of "Professional No Limit Holdem"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, I don't know. I haven't read that book yet. It's a very basic concept that some uNL'ers have no clue about so I made a post about it.

Triggerle · #7 08-14-2007, 07:16 PM

This is a great post!

Just to make sure unsuspecting new players don't fall into traps here: The post does not advocate putting all your money in over 3 streets with every good hand. On the contrary, by thinking this way about bets and pot sizes you could come to lots of conclusions during a hand, including checking, betting, or even folding pretty good hands.

Normally with monster hands like sets or overpairs this line will be great.

A typical counter-example would be TPTK type of hands. If your opponent is really bad and calls too much you can play your TPTK like a monster. This is because he will pay you off with second best hands. Against thinking opponents, however, your TPTK is often beat when all the money goes in so you may want to try to keep the pot small and deny him the opportunity to make the hand too expensive. If you, for example, leave out the turn bet or bet smaller on flop and turn you set up a situation where he would have to make a big overbet on the river to get it all in. If he does that you might (or not, depending on reads) get away from the hand without losing all your money. Most of the times he will not make this big bet and you have forced him to play for less than stacks.

This works both ways, too. A thinking opponent might see a pot sized turn as "worth it" when looked at in isolation with regard to his hand strength but he might fold despite this because he fears the big river bet that could follow. So depending on the tendencies of your opponent you might decide to bet again on the turn sometimes.

All these thoughts have a foundation, though, and it is the way of thinking about bet sizes and pot sizes as layed out by the OP.

ajmargarine · #8 08-14-2007, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I often see advice in posted hands to pot the flop and bet closer to pot on the turn and such. But if you are raising alot and cbetting flops you usually can't afford to cbet close to the pot size and be as profitable. Should we be mixing in some potsized cbets with air to allow this type of betting to be less suspicious?

For instance, I normally cbet just about every ace high dry flop normal or even a little smaller since most villains call or raise with an ace or fold if they dont have an ace. So if I all of a sudden pot this same type of board it looks crazy suspicious. But I guess AK, AQ or AJ still couldnt get away very easily but it would give all villains at the table a read on me for the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP describes the foundation. Then we derive an effective CB strategy out of the basic foundation. I'm not saying pot, pot, pot everything every time.

DontTiltMe · #9 08-14-2007, 07:17 PM

Thanks aj.

I see you used something from my hand as example, learned a lot from that hand. ty!

#10 08-14-2007, 07:39 PM

excellent post AJ. Betsizing is often underrated by new players. NL theory and practice also has a good chapter regarding betsizing.