Live 200 NL. Overpair in bloated pot vs morons; bad turn card

[Black Aces 518]

Playing 1/2 (100-200) at Winstar Casino. Very good table. Two limps to me, I hold KK in MP. I raise to $18, with $180 left behind. MP2 ($150; clueless woman, very loose, bets a lot of flops) calls, CO ($125; nitty old man) calls, BU ($220; horrible callbox woman) calls, and BB ($240, decent, slightly aggro) calls.

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($105)

BB checks. I lead for $65. Thoughts? It's just over 1/2 pot, but is a big bet in monetary terms. Also, I thought this left the most convenient "chunks" for me to put the rest in on a good turn.

MP2 calls, CO folds, BU calls, BB calls. I then think that the bad turns are a 9, an A, or a Q or 7 due to JT being likely.

Turn is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Pot is $365. I have $115 behind. Shove? Check and evaluate? I hate if it checks through on this board. Or am I definitely beat and don't care if free cards come?

[AlexB182]

Bet more on flop, why not pot? You can't check that turn, though turn card is kind of scary, many river cards would be just horrible. Every [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] , every ten, every A and you are in a world of pain.

[Black Aces 518]

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Bet more on flop, why not pot? You can't check that turn, though turn card is kind of scary, many river cards would be just horrible. Every [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] , every ten, every A and you are in a world of pain.

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I figured if I bet 65 and got one caller, that would make the pot 230, and I would have another nice 1/2 pot bet of 115 to shove. If I bet 105 on flop, I only have 75 behind for the turn. Also, live, the $$ amt is so much more relevant to the donks than the pot-size.

[iponnet]

oh wait this is live, go AI or overbet the pot even on the flop, flush draws maybe even straight draws will call you, standard live play

[ConfusedAgain]

I think with the draws out there you need to make a bigger flop bet. It makes it a bigger mistake for them to call if you have little left if they hit. The pots big enough to take it down now. Leaving a 1/2 pot bet really doesn't do much to help you in the hand. All in move may be best live - I don't know.

[Landlord79]

I might actually get away from this on the turn, J-10 looks like AA to some of these guys. But the flop bet looks goot for a live table. Those people don't realize how bet sizing works, so just make a good sized monetary bet.

Why $18 pf? Why not smaller or larger?

[JSnoop]

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I figured if I bet 65 and got one caller

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here is where you went wrong - you already said they are callboxes and bad players - bad players LOVE to draw

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that would make the pot 230, and I would have another nice 1/2 pot bet of 115 to shove. If I bet 105 on flop, I only have 75 behind for the turn. Also, live, the $$ amt is so much more relevant to the donks than the pot-size.

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I do appreciate your reasoning for your bets, and I often find myself in these types of situations where I play live all the time as well. If you were up against good players, your bets would be appropriately sized. But, what I have found is that the players that populate these games don't respect your bets, don't know how to spell odds, and all they know is "I've got a flush draw - wooooohooooo, I'm calling!!" If you bet the 105, like someone said it doesn't matter cause they are calling anyway, at least one of them will, and no matter what they are drawing at, they were incorrect to do so. Forcing them into mistakes is what wins in the long run. I also don't think that just shoving it all in here in this spot is an absolutely horrible play given who your opponents are.

[ijustliketoplay]

pre flop is fine but you should just push the flop with that many callers in that type of game. betting half pot is horrible - you gave anyone on the draw more than the right price and left yourself a difficult spot on the turn (where by the way i think there are many more scare cards than u said, like a 10 and a 5)

as played eeurgh, i'd prob check it and evaluate now but i wouldnt like it

[GiantBuddha]

Shove flop. Shove turn.

You at least have to bet closer to the full pot with so many possible draws out there. Two of your opponents only have $130 or so anyway. And with $85 in the pot preflop, there's no way you're getting away from your hand on this board. Just don't even think about it. You put in 10% of your stack preflop against a bunch of stations, and now you have an overpair on a board which could have hit a lot of hands nicely. Bet more. They'll still call you with worse.

On the turn you hit the best "bad card" and if you check and someone shoves, you'll be getting 4:1. I don't think betting here will really protect your hand much, since they'll be getting 4:1 on your shove and see a huge pile of chips and say "I want those chips," but again, they'll call you with much worse hands than yours.

When you have a big pair in a large pot like this, you really need to have a plan before you bet the flop. You did have a plan, which is good. But once you got that many callers and a decent turn card, there's no turning back. A free card here is horrible.

The real reason for betting the turn: Your opponents will bet fewer hands here than they'll call with, and you're not folding, so betting is clearly superior.

[Albert Moulton]

Push the flop. It's a bit of an overbet, but in live game you'll get calls from flush draws, straight draws, overpairs like JJ and top pair hands.

As played, shove the turn. You're still ahead often enought to get it all in because of the pot odds.