50NL- QQ 3bet with interesting flop

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cannot call for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So villan calls a bet from hero with AA/KK on a Q-high flop, then folds to hero's turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh.. no. You're not gonna flop a set enough times for this to be profitable, it's a simple math equation.

...

[corsakh]

Traz ma man. Ship 50 to moneybookers please and I will tell you what to do here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[toddxlogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cannot call for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So villan calls a bet from hero with AA/KK on a Q-high flop, then folds to hero's turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh.. no. You're not gonna flop a set enough times for this to be profitable, it's a simple math equation.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

If we apply the 5/10 rule its actually very close. The $6 raise is almost exactly 10 percent of hero's remaining effective stack. Thus we must assume that villain A) has AA or KK and B) will stack off happily on a q-high flop.

Discounting other random and improbable possibilities for winning this hand post-flop, I think a call isn't THAT bad here. I actually think it's pretty damn close. Just makes things trickier to play and you have to play assuming you are beat PF. Which is why i'm probably in the fold/raise camp here.

Am I that off?

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cannot call for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So villan calls a bet from hero with AA/KK on a Q-high flop, then folds to hero's turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh.. no. You're not gonna flop a set enough times for this to be profitable, it's a simple math equation.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

If we apply the 5/10 rule its actually very close. The $6 raise is almost exactly 10 percent of hero's remaining effective stack. Thus we must assume that villain A) has AA or KK and B) will stack off happily on a q-high flop.

Discounting other random and improbable possibilities for winning this hand post-flop, I think a call isn't THAT bad here. I actually think it's pretty damn close. Just makes things trickier to play and you have to play assuming you are beat PF. Which is why i'm probably in the fold/raise camp here.

Am I that off?

[/ QUOTE ]

5% is always call, 10% is marginal (depends on player)

And the 5/10 rule isn't really that correct. Dbitel I think did a post on how you really need some sick amount of odds just because sometimes they'll fold and sometimes you'll have set under set or lose to a flush.

So that being a marginal call with the 5/10 rule coupled with the fact that you're OOP in a 3-bet pot. I don't think 5/10 applied to 3-bet pots did it? I don't really follow it so I've never taken the time to see if it applied only to raises or not.

[EMc]

a. THaC is a great poster and Im not surprized he is playing higher now but am pissed he is
b. Calc your hand against AA, KK, AK, see your equity, and then decide your FE here. I think hell fold AK here and call KK and AA, maybe even fold AA here sometimes.

[StubbornRussian]

Dbitel's post showed you need 11.7 to 1 implied odds to call for set value if villain stacks off everytime. Quite counterintuitive really and probably unkown or misunderstood to the majority of micro players.

[floppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cannot call for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So villan calls a bet from hero with AA/KK on a Q-high flop, then folds to hero's turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh.. no. You're not gonna flop a set enough times for this to be profitable, it's a simple math equation.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're calling 6 to win 62 + 2 = 64, that's 10.67:1 odds.

If you know villan has AA/KK, you're 8:1 to outflop him (odds of making a set are a little better than the usual 7.5:1, but are defrayed somewhat by set over set)

So if you know villan's going to felt, you have the odds to call.

If you don't know villan's going to felt, he's either super weak-tight with AA/KK or your original read of AA/KK is incorrect, and is actually larger.

Generally, I think you're right that the 5/10 rule doesn't apply as much OOP (BTW, wasn't "5" for SC, and "10" for PP?), unless villan has an extremely narrow range and won't let go (and if villan has an extremely narrow range and will let go, he's very exploitable). It's just that when you say villan definitely has AA/KK but won't pay off, that doesn't make any sense.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cannot call for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So villan calls a bet from hero with AA/KK on a Q-high flop, then folds to hero's turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh.. no. You're not gonna flop a set enough times for this to be profitable, it's a simple math equation.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're calling 6 to win 62 + 2 = 64, that's 10.67:1 odds.

If you know villan has AA/KK, you're 8:1 to outflop him (odds of making a set are a little better than the usual 7.5:1, but are defrayed somewhat by set over set)

So if you know villan's going to felt, you have the odds to call.

If you don't know villan's going to felt, he's either super weak-tight with AA/KK or your original read of AA/KK is incorrect, and is actually larger.

Generally, I think you're right that the 5/10 rule doesn't apply as much OOP (BTW, wasn't "5" for SC, and "10" for PP?), unless villan has an extremely narrow range and won't let go (and if villan has an extremely narrow range and will let go, he's very exploitable). It's just that when you say villan definitely has AA/KK but won't pay off, that doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'd call a 3-bet with 22 here?

[anthb7210p]

I would definitly lead that flop for the pot and if he calls then give up

[floppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cannot call for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So villan calls a bet from hero with AA/KK on a Q-high flop, then folds to hero's turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh.. no. You're not gonna flop a set enough times for this to be profitable, it's a simple math equation.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're calling 6 to win 62 + 2 = 64, that's 10.67:1 odds.

If you know villan has AA/KK, you're 8:1 to outflop him (odds of making a set are a little better than the usual 7.5:1, but are defrayed somewhat by set over set)

So if you know villan's going to felt, you have the odds to call.

If you don't know villan's going to felt, he's either super weak-tight with AA/KK or your original read of AA/KK is incorrect, and is actually larger.

Generally, I think you're right that the 5/10 rule doesn't apply as much OOP (BTW, wasn't "5" for SC, and "10" for PP?), unless villan has an extremely narrow range and won't let go (and if villan has an extremely narrow range and will let go, he's very exploitable). It's just that when you say villan definitely has AA/KK but won't pay off, that doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'd call a 3-bet with 22 here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I knew villan always had AA/KK and could never release, why not?

You're the one who put him on exactly AA/KK. If you think he'll release on a Q-high board to a double-barreled bet (pot flop, pot turn), then his range is probably larger than that, but if it really is only AA/KK then you can't say both that villan won't pay off a set and villan can't be bet off the hand.