Stealing in the later stages: How to do it right?(6$)

illph · #1 08-13-2007, 02:34 PM

I know this sounds kind of general but is there a secret to successful blind stealing?
Lately I'm taking a lot of 5th, 4th and 3th places because I get caught trying to steal the blinds. I don't get called by monsters but more like mediocre hands that are still putting me on a coinflip for my stack...
Some examples:

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t200/t400
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1280
CO: t4790
Button: t1450
SB: t7580
Hero: t4900

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, SB raises to t1000, Hero raises all-in t4900, SB calls t4100 (pot was t5700).

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t10600, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t10600)

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t10600, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t10600)

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t10600, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t10600)

Results:
Final pot: t10600
SB balance 12480 bet 4900 collected 9800 net 4900 Qd Td 
Hero balance 0 lost 4900 8s 8h 

-or-

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t200/t400
3 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Button: t3440
Hero: t3710
BB: t12850

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Button folds, Hero raises all-in t3710, BB calls t3310 (pot was t4110).

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t7820, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t7820)

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t7820, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t7820)

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t7820, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t7820)

Results:
Final pot: t7820
Hero balance 0 lost 3710 9d 8d 
BB balance 16560 bet 3710 collected 7420 net 3710 7h Th 

Especially the second hand is questionable in my opinion. I know this may sound like some lame bad beat whine(I know these aren't bad beats) but I'm really just trying to learn how to play the late stages in a SNG(I come from playing cash games). Thanks for your replies.

splashpot · #2 08-13-2007, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
is there a secret to successful blind stealing?

[/ QUOTE ]
ICM. Check the FAQ.

splashpot · #3 08-13-2007, 02:51 PM

As far as your hands go, I think I would fold them both. I might be able to push the first one if I had some read on the villain, but you have a healthy stack and HATE to see him call there. Folding seems safer.

ymu · #4 08-13-2007, 03:02 PM

It's not a secret - ICM and hand ranges. Know what they'll call you with and do the maths. Don't get hung up on results if the push was a good one.

You could consider a stop'n'go in a situation like hand 1 if you think you don't have FE preflop (you should have had loads here - he made a horrible call, but if you'd been paying attention you presumably knew that he was capable of making that call this far into the tourney).

(Stop'n'go means you call the raise and push any flop regardless - if they won't fold preflop they might fold when they miss the flop, and if they call you're no worse off than if you'd pushed pre. Use sparingly, but it can be handy at times.)

hoyasaxa · #5 08-13-2007, 03:47 PM

i hate both pushes. In hand 1 there is no reason to push given stack sizes. (u with 10 bb, two players with 3)

Hand 2: this is just bad, period. try not to shove 9 high unless u really, really need to. like its folded to you in sb with 3 bb.

pauliewalnuts · #6 08-13-2007, 04:23 PM

I think I wouldve definitely pushed the first. Barring a read that he is a maniac, you have to assume you have saome good FE, plus very likely the best hand.

2nd hand is close. Pushing is +.1 with him on a 22+,A2s+,A2o+,K9s+,KTo+,QTs,JTs range. Now obviously he called much lighter, but I think that range is too loose for most players. At this point though, you shouldve realized he is very loose and folded that hand. Against most players though I think the push is ok.

ymu · #7 08-13-2007, 04:44 PM

Neither of these pushes look awful - until you see what they called with. You need to tighten up your pushes when there's a loose player left to act - especially away from weaker unpaired hands and towards higher pairs.

You can't steal as often if the table (or the key villains to your left) are loose, but this is compensated for by the fact that you'll double up a lot more easily when you find a real hand, and the fact that they're more likely to donk off all their chips before you have to make a move.

illph · #8 08-13-2007, 05:14 PM

Well, I read the FAQ and the part about ICM but I'm still trying to understand it and how to put it to good use when I'm in the heat of a sng match.
I will definitly try to get better reads on my opponents, I think not picking up on playing styles and betting patterns is definitely one of my biggest leaks so far.

ymu · #9 08-13-2007, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I read the FAQ and the part about ICM but I'm still trying to understand it and how to put it to good use when I'm in the heat of a sng match.
I will definitly try to get better reads on my opponents, I think not picking up on playing styles and betting patterns is definitely one of my biggest leaks so far.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the lowest buy-ins you'll often have a very loose table and may have to push really very tight - especially if they've already said "ooh, I have a pretty hand" by raising.

As you move up you'll find more and more players who know what they're doing and can fold to a resteal, but there will still be donks who call too loose. You really need to know who they are - keep an eye on what hands they call raises with early on and how loosely they call down post flop.

Against loose players, value bet your big hands to death and try to get AA all in preflop whenever it looks feasible (spot the players who don't fold once they've put some chips in preflop). Against better players, steal and resteal when the situation is right (ie where it's +$EV against sensible raising and calling ranges). Against better players still, be aware of what they think of you (and other villains left to act in the hand) because this will affect their ranges also.