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#21
08-12-2007, 05:46 AM
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Re: Heads up Cash vs. someone who basically only 3-bets from the BB
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] so you're saying, that if we're playing 5/10, and I 3-bet to $90, that you're going to 4-bet me to $180? No one will ever fold to that. that doesn't seem to accomplish anything, as it doesn't define either of our hands, and especially if you're doing this with mediocre hands, you're building a big pot in which you're probably beat. Flatcalling the 3-bet and then raising the flop would seem to do a better job. I don't think I've ever seen anyone advocate smaller raises in which you price in everything. [/ QUOTE ] Yes. They can't call profitably with crap hands out of position. They haven't got the implied odds. Even if he's got a hand like AJs... he can't just call there. He's gonna be hitting the flop a third of the time... You've essentially put him to a decision for all of his chips... while risky only 1/3 - 1/5th of yours. [/ QUOTE ] He isn't put to the decision until you bet at him again. So it's more like 40-50% of your chips (18 pre + cont bet of some kind) 
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#22
08-12-2007, 05:50 AM
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Re: Heads up Cash vs. someone who basically only 3-bets from the BB
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] so you're saying, that if we're playing 5/10, and I 3-bet to $90, that you're going to 4-bet me to $180? No one will ever fold to that. that doesn't seem to accomplish anything, as it doesn't define either of our hands, and especially if you're doing this with mediocre hands, you're building a big pot in which you're probably beat. Flatcalling the 3-bet and then raising the flop would seem to do a better job. I don't think I've ever seen anyone advocate smaller raises in which you price in everything. [/ QUOTE ] Yes. They can't call profitably with crap hands out of position. They haven't got the implied odds. Even if he's got a hand like AJs... he can't just call there. He's gonna be hitting the flop a third of the time... You've essentially put him to a decision for all of his chips... while risky only 1/3 - 1/5th of yours. [/ QUOTE ] He isn't put to the decision until you bet at him again. So it's more like 40-50% of your chips (18 pre + cont bet of some kind) [/ QUOTE ] well, he is because I'm assuming that he can't just call preflop with speculative hand. He's gotta fold 5-bet and commit himself if he thinks you're FOS.
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#23
08-12-2007, 06:00 AM
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Re: Heads up Cash vs. someone who basically only 3-bets from the BB
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] so you're saying, that if we're playing 5/10, and I 3-bet to $90, that you're going to 4-bet me to $180? No one will ever fold to that. that doesn't seem to accomplish anything, as it doesn't define either of our hands, and especially if you're doing this with mediocre hands, you're building a big pot in which you're probably beat. Flatcalling the 3-bet and then raising the flop would seem to do a better job. I don't think I've ever seen anyone advocate smaller raises in which you price in everything. [/ QUOTE ] Yes. They can't call profitably with crap hands out of position. They haven't got the implied odds. Even if he's got a hand like AJs... he can't just call there. He's gonna be hitting the flop a third of the time... You've essentially put him to a decision for all of his chips... while risky only 1/3 - 1/5th of yours. [/ QUOTE ] He isn't put to the decision until you bet at him again. So it's more like 40-50% of your chips (18 pre + cont bet of some kind) [/ QUOTE ] well, he is because I'm assuming that he can't just call preflop with speculative hand. He's gotta fold 5-bet and commit himself if he thinks you're FOS. [/ QUOTE ] If you put in a real 4-bet, sure. A real 4-bet would be to 27, and you are absolutely right that it's a colossal mistake to call that with speculative cards. But these mini-4-bets don't force him to commmit at all. They give 3:1 immediate and 12:1 implied odds. That's def. callable.
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#24
08-12-2007, 06:30 AM
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Re: Heads up Cash vs. someone who basically only 3-bets from the BB
You think you can call my "minraise" with hands like 54s OOP because you're getting 3:1 / 12:1 ?
Edit: anyways, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. I have to way of proving what I'm saying is right. My whole point is that i see people not taking into account position when 3/4 betting and it's a mistake imo. let's say villain limps, you raise AJ, he 3-bets, you have a read that he does this with a v. wide range inc. hands like 54s. There i believe you should 4-bet big. Bigger than when you 4-bet in position. Most people seem to reraise to the same amount regardless. Now arguing how much more/less is kinda pointless.
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#25
08-12-2007, 08:08 AM
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Re: Heads up Cash vs. someone who basically only 3-bets from the BB
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] BTW, about this "basically only 3-bets from the BB" thing. I basically only 3-bet from the BB. If I re-raise from the SB it is a 4-bet. I don't find it unusually that this opponent "basically only 3-bets from the BB". [/ QUOTE ] What the OP means is that the villain doesn't flatcall from the BB. He raises (3-bets) or folds. [/ QUOTE ] ah, this thread makes much more sense now. Don't mind me, I have a concussion.
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