Possibly my biggest leak...

[Nick D]

Hey Guys.. time for a decent post to try to generate some discussion. It's about what I think my biggest leak is in the game right now...going to showdown with marginal hands in shorthanded pots.

I know, I know, pretty straightforward.

Here is what SSHE has to offer (pg. 146):
"In small pots, going too far with weak hands is expensive. You can bet marginal hands on the flop to try to pick up the pot, but if you are raised, usually release your hand immediately or on fourth street if you do not improve. If an opponent is betting or raising, you need to be fairly confident that you have the best hand or a strong draw to call. This principle is especially true after the bet size doubles on the turn. Many loose players repeatedly make the mistake of calling down with weak hands in small pots. In a small pot if you think you have a close decision between continuing and folding, tend to fold."

I play on FTP every day for a few hours a day. I know that I've been getting better, and this forum has a lot to do with that (thanks guys). But for some reason, I am still a losing player. I wrote the post a few days ago about me being a bad poker player because I just was not winning consistently, and I knew it had some to do with variance, but I also knew it was because I wasn't playing well enough (for christ's sake, I'm still not!).

Today, I won a few pretty large pots in just a few hands, and I was amazed at how many BB I shot up. It made me realize the importance of playing in large pots with strong draws and great starting hands. It also got me to thinking that I played those pots well, and I made what are in my opinion +EV decisions.

But a lot of these decisions are wrong in smaller pots when you are heads up with a draw or multiway with a weak top-pair hand (there are also many other factors and situations..welcome to poker, eh?) I see so many posts on here where the issue is not, "do I raise here.. do I bet here.." Most of the replies are often, "I fold flop." Or, "I fold this PF."

I think a lot of us newbs are still playing a lot of our hands too far in small pots. If you have AQo and 3-bet someones raise PF and they donk into you when there's a K on board, LET IT GO. If you flop a gutshot with BDFD holding 75s in the BB heads up against the SB and they bet into you..just move on. I think this goes double for unknowns. You're going to win your money in the big pots when you've been patient and you finally hit TPTK w/ the nut FD.

I would encourage people (esp. maybe some vets) to post some hands where they went too far in a hand and the pot was too small. I'll do it just as soon as I am done drinking alcohol with my bro, passed out, cured of my hangover and ready to stare at the computer screen again e.g. tomorrow. Until then, please feel free to comment.

Nick

[Zeldark]

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I would encourage people (esp. maybe some vets) to post some hands where they went too far in a hand and the pot was too small.

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What is the purpose of posting a hand that you played poorly for a reason you've identified?

[calidris]

Good that you're a thinking player Nick. I think you're right also. Going to far with weak hands in small pots is a very good way of loosing what you win in the big pots. It's generally considered that 2BB/100 is a good profit. But 2 BB is also just 4 bad SB calls. The difference between winning and loosing money is thus very small.

Another thing you might want to think about is that not all losses come from loosing hands. Some "losses" come from not value betting when you should, especially on the river with TP and on the flop with strong draws.

As an example, you have AK, flop Axx. Turn and river comes the same suit putting 3 of that suit on the board. You check because you're scared that opponent caught a flush and he checks behind you showing down mid pair. You just lost 1 BB since most players in the micros call one more here.

Another possible leak is to not value bet your strong draws on the flop. Nut flush draw, opponent bet, 2 callers, you call thinking that you wait until you make your hand so not to waste bets. Correct play is to raise for value since you will win this hand far more often than 25% + it might give you a free turn card. You just "lost" another couple of bets

Possibly there's more things to think about but for me, fixing these leaks turned it from -3BB/100 over my first 8k hands to +3BB over the next 25k

[Alexost]

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[ QUOTE ]
I would encourage people (esp. maybe some vets) to post some hands where they went too far in a hand and the pot was too small.

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What is the purpose of posting a hand that you played poorly for a reason you've identified?

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Being a new player, I'd like to see some examples.

[Nick D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would encourage people (esp. maybe some vets) to post some hands where they went too far in a hand and the pot was too small.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is the purpose of posting a hand that you played poorly for a reason you've identified?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is just as you said.. I guess I don't understand how you DON'T understand that.. Seeing a clear example of a hand that maybe wasn't the best to pursue to showdown and admitting that it was a mistake because the pot was too small would be extremely beneficial for some of the n00bs here on 2+2 IMO.

These might even be hands where you have AA-QQ and knew you were beat HU, but still went to showdown in a WB situation. Sometimes people just need to see from someone they can trust that there are situations where it is correct to fold these hands.

ps. I understand the most of the reason for posting hands here in the micros is to have people evaluate your plays. I'm simply suggesting here that I've already evaluated my leak, and would simply like people (esp. some veterans) to show examples of these situation so that people will avoid them. Why veterans? People who've played quite a few 10k hands will have many better examples than n00bs will, and will also be able to explain WHY these situations were incorrect. Also, we inherently respect them more, so seeing what they say will be more powerful than someone who's posted 4 times.

Nick

[Groendal]

I felt good yesterday, when i folded KK without ace as an overcard.

But its hard to face it. I had like 14 VPIP, and when i first got a KK it hurt to lay it down.

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
I felt good yesterday, when i folded KK without ace as an overcard.

But its hard to face it. I had like 14 VPIP, and when i first got a KK it hurt to lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without seeing this hand and unless the board was 4 flushed, 4 straight, or doubled paired or someone laid there hand face up I'd be surprised if this was the right play. 14 vpip is too tight. You have the makings of a nit.

OP: Here is an example:

Two limpers and its folded to you in the BB with 57o.
Flop comes 79Ah and it's bet and called and one to you.
Pot is small, fold.

[Groendal]

It was after about 150 hands. Not my fault that i was going card dry? Right. I would be lying at about 20 i think.

This was just to say, that when i first got a hand (After about 20 hands with no good hands) and managed to fold because i was behind.

Ill dig the hand when i get home. (At work now)

[Nick D]

Here is one thing I do that too often. I call river bets with mediocre hands when I am 95% sure I'm beat. Why do I call these double size bets? I call them because I hate being bluffed, but also to get information. I love seeing peoples' cards to see what they are raising with, what they're calling with, what they're donking with.. all to make a note, you know.

But this is lunacy in small pots! SSHE makes the distinction here between small pots and big pots.. "Call liberally for one bet on the river, even when you are almost sure that you are beaten." This line falls under the heading, "Adjusting to Big Pots." But calling for information or because you don't want to be bluffed in a small pot is just dumb if you are sure you are beaten. Look at it this way.

Small Pot (4BB)
You are bet into heads up and are 90% sure you are beaten. You must call 1 more to get 5. To be profitable, your opponent must be bluffing 20% of the time (a relatively high number in the tables I play). Time to dump the hand.

Big Pot (13 BB)
It is bet to you and you are 90% sure you are beaten. You must call 1 more to get 14. This means that if your opponent is bluffing a mere 7.1% of the time, this call is profitable. IMO, you can call here.

If you are calling just to see if he bluffs or not, consider waiting and watching closely to see when they are in another hand. Some donkey (and NOT you) will call him to the river most likely, and then you'll be able to see just what they have and confirm that you made the correct lay down (most likely).

I must credit AussieBattler for his post here. Reading this in tandem with SSHE (again, and again!) has really helped me out here. So now we see if I can turn this thing around and start getting a positive BB/100.

[cmcneilly]

Advice that helped me was "The goal is to win money, not pots." This often means letting the little pots with little hands go and wait for better opportunities.