Anything else gambling skill games?

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm... VP is beatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain.......I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really really really obvious if you do a little looking around. For almost the exact same reasons poker is beatable.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
For almost the exact same reasons poker is beatable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tilt. Not even close.

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
I am simply stating that a slot or a VP machine is pre-programmed by law to return less than 100% Return To Player (can usually be anywhere from 80-99% RTP depending on operator and or juristiction). It is mathematically impossible to be a winner on slots or VP in the long run, irrespective or your strategy and/or "skill".



[/ QUOTE ]

Let's make a deal, I'll give you the name of a person meeting your criteria specified in a prior post and you give me a link to this mythological "law" you seem to believe exists for all video games in the universe. Deal?

Jimbo

[UprightCreature]

Lets say a video poker player typically goes to vegas for 3 nights and puts $100k coin in on a 9/6 JoB machine (99.5%) that they play nearly perfectly. The casino offers 0.3% cash back, limited RFB with a $100 a day food/beverage credit and $300-500 in free play for the weekend. Does that sound +EV or -EV?

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
Try BlackJack

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought continuous shuffling machines had completely negated the advantage that card counters had. (There are other methods such as finding a dealer that 'allows' you to see his hole card but leaving that aside.)

[Metamorphatory]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say a video poker player typically goes to vegas for 3 nights and puts $100k coin in on a 9/6 JoB machine (99.5%) that they play nearly perfectly . The casino offers 0.3% cash back , limited RFB with a $100 a day food/beverage credit and $300-500 in free play for the weekend. Does that sound +EV or -EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

What, no blow job and a full day package at the day spa to complete this awesome +EV situation and prove your argument?

What you have here is a promotion. Not an argument for continued +EV on slots. As I clearly stated in a previous post: every single slot or VP machine in the world, is a possible +EV situation at any given time.

The title of the thread is: Anything else gambling skill games?

The answer is not slots.

[Metamorphatory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am simply stating that a slot or a VP machine is pre-programmed by law to return less than 100% Return To Player (can usually be anywhere from 80-99% RTP depending on operator and or juristiction). It is mathematically impossible to be a winner on slots or VP in the long run, irrespective or your strategy and/or "skill".



[/ QUOTE ]

Let's make a deal, I'll give you the name of a person meeting your criteria specified in a prior post and you give me a link to this mythological "law" you seem to believe exists for all video games in the universe. Deal?

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

No Problem, try this:

To save me writing it out, here is a simplest explination I could find for you, taken from Wiki:

Slot machines are typically programmed to pay out as winnings between 82 to 98 percent of the money that is wagered by players. This is known as the "theoretical payout percentage". The minimum theoretical payout percentage varies among jurisdictions and is typically established by law or regulation. For example, the minimum payout percentage in Nevada is 75 percent and in New Jersey is 83 percent. The winning patterns on slot machines, the amounts they pay, and the frequency at which they appear are carefully selected to yield a certain percentage of the cost of play to the "house" (the operator of the slot machine), while returning the rest to the player during play. Suppose that a certain slot machine costs $1 per spin. It can be calculated that over a sufficiently long period, such as 1,000,000 spins, that the machine will return an average of $950,000 to its players, who have inserted $1,000,000 during that time. In this (simplified) example, the slot machine is said to pay out 95%. The operator keeps the remaining $50,000. Within some EGM-development organizations this concept is referred to simply as "par". "Par" also manifests itself to gamblers as promotional techiniques: "Our 'Loose Slots' have a 93% Pay-back! Play now!"
A slot machine's theoretical payout percentage is set at the factory when the software is written. Changing the payout percentages after a slot machine has been placed on the gaming floor requires a physical swap of the software, which is usually stored on an EPROM but may be downloaded to Non-Volatile Random Access Memory (NVRAM) or even stored on CD-ROM or DVD depending on the technological capabilities of the machine and the regulations of the jurisdiction. Based on current technology, this is a time consuming process and as such is done infrequently. In certain jurisdictions, such as New Jersey, the EPROM is sealed with a tamper-evident seal and can only be changed in the presence of Gaming Control Board officials. Other jurisdictions, including Nevada, randomly audit slot machines to ensure that they contain only approved software.
In many markets where central monitoring and control systems (bold wording for my edit to assist the explanation for the unfarmiliar: Central Monitoring and Control Systems means linked directly to the Casino Control Authority/Government Department in any given state) are used to link machines for auditing and security purposes, usually in wide area networks of multiple venues and thousands of machines, player return must usually be changed from a central computer rather than at each individual machine. A range of percentages are preprogrammed into the game software and selected by configuring the machine remotely.)
In 2006, the Nevada Gaming Commission began working with Las Vegas casinos on technology that would allow the casino's slot manager to change the game, the odds, and the payouts remotely via a computer. The change cannot be done instantaneously, but only after the selected machine has been idle for at least four minutes. After the change is made, the machine must be locked to new players for four minutes and display an on-screen message informing potential players that a change is being made.


Here are a selection of laws taken from the Nevada Gaming Control Comission:

Nevada Gaming Control Website

Full definitions and further infringment notices can be found on the website but here are a few selected highlights for non-compliance:

2.010 Changes to payout percentage.
1. The theoretical payback percentage of a gaming device must not be capable of being
changed without making a hardware or software change in the device except as provided for
in Technical Standard 1. For purposes of this standard, the addition of an attendant-paid
bonus, a progressive jackpot, or a change in rate of progression of an existing progressive
jackpot is not considered to be a change in the theoretical payback of the gaming device.
2. Notwithstanding subsection 1, draw poker type gaming devices may have switch
selectable or menu selectable top award values so long as the selectable range does not
alter the payback percentage of the device by more than 1 percent with typical field play.
(Adopted: 9/89. Amended: 11/17/05.)

5.030 Violation of law or regulations. Violation of any provision of the Nevada Gaming
Control Act or of these regulations by a licensee, his agent or employee shall be deemed
contrary to the public health, safety, morals, good order and general welfare of the
inhabitants of the State of Nevada and grounds for suspension or revocation of a license.
Acceptance of a state gaming license or renewal thereof by a licensee constitutes an
agreement on the part of the licensee to be bound by all of the regulations of the commission
as the same now are or may hereafter be amended or promulgated. It is the responsibility of
the licensee to keep himself informed of the content of all such regulations, and ignorance
thereof will not excuse violations.

5.085 Unauthorized games. No licensee shall permit any game other than those
specifically named in the Nevada Gaming Control Act as a “game” or “gambling game” to be
operated without first applying for and receiving permission from the commission to operate
such game and, if permission is granted, thereafter obtaining all required state, county and
city licenses for the same.
(Adopted: 8/61.

Whilst these are Nevada Regs (they also cover a number of other states by agreement) every state that licences slots and VP has exactly the same regulations in place due to taxation laws (the government cant get accurate taxation revenue unless they know exactly how much money has been made).


Now back to that Professional Winning Slot player with over 3 years play?

[UprightCreature]

Fine, forget about comps and cashback making -EV machines positive, even though a skilled player (the skill is both in knowing VP strategy and understanding the comp system and how to work it in your favor).

There are a number of straight up positive machines in Vegas. The El Cortez for example has some 100.9% deuces wild and 100.6% jokers wild machine as well as a number of other machines that return greater than 100% with optimal play. All of these machines are $0.25 machines, its only minimum wage with very fast play. There are a lot of these machines at various casinos around Vegas, though not at the major strip properties.

The reason why both the comp scam and positive VP machines exist is because the typical player plays nowhere close to optimal VP strategy and doesn't actually get the maximum theoretical return in the long run.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For almost the exact same reasons poker is beatable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tilt. Not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about this after I wrote it, and thought that it could be confusing. I meant that in that not all games are beatable to all players. But in fast there are some poker players that are +EV in all games and some that are -EV in all games. VP for an expert (who just has to follow a strategy albeit complicated at times) is +EV or -EV depending on the situations of the games. Perhaps I should have added a disclaimer similar to the average player or just not used such a stretched example.

Basically some machines exist that are +EV, but the vast majority you just toss in a slot club promo or something else and they move into a good hourly.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought about this after I wrote it ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Slots and video gaming are all zero memory strategies. Other than memorizing what the optimal play is in games where you have a decision to make -- the strategy is not dependent on any other factors. So, unlike poker -- it's a single player game. There is no raising, bluffing, or any other strategic signals that can be exploited. VP is like playing pure basic strategy at BJ.