My Set Scares Me : (

[joop]

Missed 77 (6) and A7s (4).

Brings the hands that beat us to 30 now, assuming my estimates of his range are correct.

And I don't think they can be estimated with so much accuracy without a read on villian.

Also, we will often improve on the river to pickup an extra 2BB.

So I stand by my instinct of raising turn and calling down UI.

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[kiddo]

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Not 3betting the flop in this spot is a large mistake.

If I had just called the flop raise, I would raise the turn. If the CO had 7x he would probably raise the flop, if the BB had just a naked 7 he would probably just call the flop in that spot. The BB's most likely hand in this spot is still just 6x IMO.

By raising the turn you get more money in the pot with the likely best hand. You also force the CO to pay the maximum if he turned a FD or you force him to either incorrectly call or correctly fold with a hand like 3x or 9x. If the Co folds you also eliminate the possibility of a 3way chop on the river. If you get 3bet I would call down unless I had a very strong read that I could fold the river UI against whomever 3bets me.

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I agree with everything but it being a big misstake not 3betting flop. Why? I agree that his most likely hand is 6x so why dont we want him to bet it again on turn and then raise? Blinddefenders getting aggressive with low pairs when they hope u are on overs got to be punished hard. Not saying 3betting flop is a misstake. But agaisnt aggressive players we can also use our position and wait 1 street.

[joop]

This sounds like the play if we were HU, but we have CO still in the hand behind us - 3betting the flop faces CO with 2 more bets, helping us to protect our hand. Whatever CO holds, calling 1 bet getting 11.5-1 can't be a huge mistake... however calling two getting 12.5-2, not closing the action, may be.

Let me know your thougts.

[Westley878]

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This sounds like the play if we were HU, but we have CO still in the hand behind us - 3betting the flop faces CO with 2 more bets, helping us to protect our hand. Whatever CO holds, calling 1 bet getting 11.5-1 can't be a huge mistake... however calling two getting 12.5-2, not closing the action, may be.

Let me know your thougts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, with the other guy in the hand we have to 3bet the flop.

[SteveL91]

As has been mentioned, I would definitely 3bet the flop with CO still to act; if it were HU, you could wait for the turn, but it's not a big deal either way.

What I really wanted to address was the turn: you can call or you can raise, but you definitely can't raise and fold the river UI, especially if you think the BB is at all good. The reason being you're just not going to show up with a 7 here all that often unless you're capable of raising 67s, 78s and 97s type hands UTG (and even if you would, you're definitely 3 betting 67 and 78, and possibly 97 on this flop). That would leave 77, which is practically never just calling the flop and A7s which might. Personally, I think BB can and should put more action in on the turn with 2pr (at least some of the time), unless the CO comes to life. But, I might be too willing to push what I perceive to be an edge.

Granted, it would be hard to put you on a hand if you call then raise the turn, but it's also really hard to give you credit for a 7 given your flop line and UTG raise. Also, if you had 3bet the flop and the BB either donks or c/r's the turn, I would NOT put in a raise. I still don't think I could fold the river under normal circumstances, but it wouldn't surprise me if a fold were correct.

Just my opinion.

[Westley878]

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So I stand by my instinct of raising turn and calling down UI.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Although my earlier "click the call button twice" seems to support a blind calldown after being 3bet, the message I was really trying to convey was that if we dont know what to do once three bet, then showing down UI is ok. One could argue that if we dont know what to do if 3bet then why raise the turn to begin with? I believe there is enough pure value in this turn raise along with some protection value to more than offset the problem of dealing with a 3bet.

Im not really advocating showing down UI here once 3bet on the turn, but Im not against it either. If I had to sum up my thoughts on that situation in one four word sentence it would be: Once 3bet, play poker.

What I mean by this statement is once 3bet, use all the information you have at hand, and try to figure out what you should do on the river UI. I dont always call in that spot, I dont always fold in that spot. If I dont have enough information to figure out which line is best UI on the river, then it doesnt really matter what line I take, since all viable lines must be inherently close in expectation, assuming my judgement is in line with reality.

[donger]

Are you ILP? Why'd you change your name?

[Westley878]

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Are you ILP? Why'd you change your name?

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I didnt change my name. I have two accounts. Westley878 is the first name I ever had on 2+2. Then I opened up another account (ILP) around a year ago and posted mostly under that name. Ive decided to post mostly under Westley878 again for the time being. Yes I am a weirdo.

[Scary_Tiger]

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[ QUOTE ]
Are you ILP? Why'd you change your name?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I am insane.

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[Westley878]

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[ QUOTE ]
Are you ILP? Why'd you change your name?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I am insane.

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I reserve the right to have as many personalities as I want. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]