Strong draw again.

[Dan Bitel]

go broke,

but why would we WANT a worse hand to fold?

[Go_BroKe]

We don't necessary want a worse hand to fold. We want value from worse hands, so we raise. A call doesn't give us value.

[Dan Bitel]

a second ago you said we were raising for FEQ...now we're raising for value....well what one is it? Think about if you didnt have the flush draw...would you still raise for value (you shouldn't be)?

[Go_BroKe]

Alright, Dan Bitel, now I am really confused. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

But isn't a raise standard in this spot? Why is calling better. You have won our match when you explain that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[kokiri]

i fold preflop, as played I raise flop for value against lower pairs and I shove this.

We have some FE vs. a better J, maybe not much but we've decent equity against anything but a set so we're not losing much EV when we get called and I think we get called by a worse hand enough to make this solidly +EV.

We're 50% vs. an overpair, yet when villain loses with KK, the table is going to buddylist us straight away.

[Dan Bitel]

GB,

a raise is "standard" in teh way that most players do...that doesnt make it right. Weak top pair+FD hands are misplayed by a lot of people, at pretty much all stakes. You are programmed to think "wow, combo draw...raise...get all in". The problem is that a lot of people don't think WHY they are doing this.

When we have an OESFD, we normally have like ten high, so we REALLY want a fold. Here however, we actually have top pair. The problem though is that we have a terrible kicker. Another problem is that we are actually a DOG vs another top pair. Now this is only like 8% or so difference than if we have a OESFD, but it all adds up.

Now if we raise here, he will probably stack off with all hands better than ours, and fold all worse than ours. If however we just call, we can still win a very big pot if we hit our kicker or flush, while as we're in position, we can control the pot size if we miss. (if we were OOP, i would like raising more)

[Go_BroKe]

thx

[Richard Tanner]

Question. Why is anyone saying fold PF. We have a bad/decent drawing hand and we're facing a $.10 raise. We're getting 3 to 1. How can anyone fold ATC here.

Cody

[nebben]

Twodimes puts you at 50% against 86 and 33 percent against J8. Against a set, you are 30%. As it stands, on the flop you have to call 1.2 into a 4.8 pot. (.4+1.6+2.8 will someone comment on this I somehow have a real hard time here sometimes). You are getting odds for your FD if you stick it in now. If you call, I expect him to bet the turn with most everything that beats you, and you need in the range of 3:1 to call there drawing to a 2 pair and fd (you won't be getting it). If we already have the odds on the flop, why does it matter what he folds? I don't have pokerstove at work, but unless we think he will lead bluff the turn, calling effectively shuts us out of the pot as we will only have like 25 percent equity against hands that beat us, and we will need 33 percent. While I understand that he probably bluffs here enough to make it a call, why not just stick it in on the flop since at worst case we have the odds?

[nebben]

bump