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#1
08-07-2007, 08:46 PM
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a QTs hand i played a while back
i was taking a bit of a shot at the time...
villain has about $2800 and i cover. 2 limpers to me in MP, i limp Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (i raise this quite a bit, this time i limp along), 2 more limpers, an unknown goofy-looking guy raises to 50 straight from the BB, we all call. Flop($250.00): A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] PFR bets $125.00, one caller, i raise to $300.00 straight, folds to PFR who calls, caller hems and haws and talks about "how sick this will be" if he hits and calls. Turn($1150.00): beautiful 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] check, check, i bet $950, PFR calls, other folds. River($3050.00): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] villain shoves for about $1500. i've actually learned quite a bit since i played this hand. i def. hate the pf limp. still, i would like to hear some thoughts. 
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#2
08-07-2007, 08:54 PM
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Re: a QTs hand i played a while back
i don't play high stakes (or live much), and i realize you have to call $1500 into a pot of $4,500, but this is a fold on the river. you showed strength on the flop, on the turn, and he open pushes the river on a four diamond board. hopefully better players will disagree with me so i can learn something new perhaps.
edit: I finished Flynn's book today, so maybe you crossed the commitment threshold with your turn bet (I don't know). So maybe it is a call. I just don't think you'll see a worse hand here enough to call. Now, if you were OOP it would be different. But here, he is open shoving into you.
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#3
08-07-2007, 09:21 PM
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Re: a QTs hand i played a while back
James,
I'll ignore preflop for now and go straight to what is your biggest mistake in the hand: the flop. After your call the pot is $625, and you raised $175? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] What's that all about? You raised, as opposed to calling, therefore you reopened the betting, however, you raised an amount that basically gave yourself zero fold equity. Let's discuss that. Does it make sense to reopen the betting here, purely in terms of pot equity? The answer is no. Your draw is weak. You are drawing to a non-nut flush, with no overcards, no straight draw, and on an ace-high board. You absolutely do not want to commit for 10x the pot on this flop, so you really hate a reraise. So, how likely is a reraise? That's hard for us to determine without more information about your opponents' ranges and tendencies, but here's the point: The only reason you would raise this flop would be purely because you thought fold equity was on your side. And in that case, you would raise an amount that would maximize fold equity, and that amount is NOT a $175 raise in a $625 three-way pot. On the flop you were closing the action, you had position, and while your draw was not that great, your implied odds may have been pretty decent - this is a perfect spot to call. You give yourself a lot more flexibility on later streets, with a lot more information, before getting committed to a big pot. -S
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#4
08-07-2007, 10:08 PM
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Re: a QTs hand i played a while back
[ QUOTE ]
I'll ignore preflop for now [/ QUOTE ] What's wrong with preflop? I probably would have played it the same.
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#5
08-07-2007, 10:42 PM
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Re: a QTs hand i played a while back
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'll ignore preflop for now [/ QUOTE ] What's wrong with preflop? I probably would have played it the same. [/ QUOTE ] not raising is bad. i've learned that preflop is a really important street in NL. playing correctly preflop can save your stack. more defined ranges--->fewer fundamental mistakes--->max. profit.
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#6
08-08-2007, 12:24 AM
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Re: a QTs hand i played a while back
just to clarify guys - I wasn't necessarily saying there was something wrong with preflop, just that I was ignoring it in my analysis....
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#7
08-08-2007, 06:37 AM
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Re: a QTs hand i played a while back
[ QUOTE ]
not raising is bad. [/ QUOTE ] This hand is pretty much just a suited connector when the pot gets large. i.e. you don't play it for top pair value, and if you do, you want a small pot. Furthermore you're in middle position. So does it make sense to generally keep the money small preflop and maximize implied odds for the flush/straight/two pair?
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#8
08-08-2007, 09:06 AM
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Re: a QTs hand i played a while back
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] not raising is bad. [/ QUOTE ] This hand is pretty much just a suited connector when the pot gets large. i.e. you don't play it for top pair value, and if you do, you want a small pot. Furthermore you're in middle position. So does it make sense to generally keep the money small preflop and maximize implied odds for the flush/straight/two pair? [/ QUOTE ] hey, how's it going man......of means? not raising pf isn't "bad" as i misstated. limping pf has it's obvious advantages as you pointed out. it's just that raising pf is better for me and how i play. this game was sort of a rarity at the time. it was basically a couple 2/5 regs that had some extra money and wanted to get a bigger game going. even some of the 1/2 fish were minbuying in, and it was just to good to pass up. that being said, the gap concept sort of comes into play here. if i limp, there was a couple aggressive players behind me that would be raising a wide range in late position. that put's me in a tough spot postflop. say i flop top pair, they would play 77 or a strong draw like it's the nuts and it would be rougher for me to play correctly OOP in a big pot. these same players will fold a pretty decent range to my preflop raise. as a result alot of times i buy the button, get the pot 2-3 handed(more importantly get the good players out), and even take it down more often when the flop misses everyone.
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#9
08-08-2007, 10:25 AM
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Re: a QTs hand i played a while back
[ QUOTE ]
if i limp, there was a couple aggressive players behind me that would be raising a wide range in late position. that put's me in a tough spot postflop. say i flop top pair, they would play 77 or a strong draw like it's the nuts and it would be rougher for me to play correctly OOP in a big pot. these same players will fold a pretty decent range to my preflop raise. as a result alot of times i buy the button, get the pot 2-3 handed(more importantly get the good players out), and even take it down more often when the flop misses everyone. [/ QUOTE ] excellent way (i.e. - ranges and tendencies) of analyzing your preflop actions James. also keep in mind how the pot size might change with different actions (wrt stack-to-pot ratios).
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#10
08-08-2007, 10:35 AM
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Re: a QTs hand i played a while back
[ QUOTE ]
that being said, the gap concept sort of comes into play here. if i limp, there was a couple aggressive players behind me that would be raising a wide range in late position. that put's me in a tough spot postflop. say i flop top pair, they would play 77 or a strong draw like it's the nuts and it would be rougher for me to play correctly OOP in a big pot. these same players will fold a pretty decent range to my preflop raise. [/ QUOTE ] I was reading the 1st part and thinking, yes, but these aggressive players probably coldcall a wide range in position. That is usually the problem I have raising a suited broadway in MP. But if a) they fold to your raise often and/or b) if they coldcall they fold the flop with air, then I guess your raise is cool. Now, With these stack sizes, how damaging is a potential reraise from a) late position, b) the blinds ?
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