NL200 Top Top Ugly board vs shortish stack

[SABR42]

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Why would we want FE? FE is important when we have a draw and can push out made hands. This does not apply here.

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That's not true. FE applies anytime your bet can make a better hand fold--it is most commonly applied to draws, but it also applies to other situations.

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LOL at any better hand folding...

[CalledDownLight]

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Why would we want FE? FE is important when we have a draw and can push out made hands. This does not apply here.

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That's not true. FE applies anytime your bet can make a better hand fold--it is most commonly applied to draws, but it also applies to other situations.

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LOL at any better hand folding...

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Indeed. Blunty, whats wrong with calling the turn and river bets? B/f the flop is too weak, but b/c becomes a bluff cathcer. Checking lets him bluff or vbet Ax. I might even shove river if he checks it to me, but thats real thin and a lot of people won't like that I'm sure.

[Makonnen]

Posters I usually agree with are ridiculing me, so I must be being really stupid here.

Could someone explain why call > shove here?

As a general rule, if I plan to call a river shove, I would rather be the one shoving on the turn. Is there something wrong with that rule? If so, what and why?

[da_fume]

There is no value in shoving. If they fold to it you can be sure you were ahead and if they call and are ahead it's the same either way. However, they can bet with a worse hand on the river.

[jhill3535]

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Why would we want FE? FE is important when we have a draw and can push out made hands. This does not apply here.

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That's not true. FE applies anytime your bet can make a better hand fold--it is most commonly applied to draws, but it also applies to other situations.

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The statement above is not completely true.

Fold Equity does not only apply to equity gained by folding out a better hand. Folding out a better hand is by definition a "bluff".

The reasons for bluffing are to push your opponent off of his better hand, and in doing so you pick up his equity in the pot.

Fold Equity can also apply when we have the better hand. We gain every time our opponent folds. Usually we would rather he make an incorrect call as we profit more from this mistake than from him folding, but we do also gain from him folding.

An example:

We hold 44 on a J96 rainbow flop and our opponent holds KQs with a backdoor flush possible. In this instance our equity can be shown as:

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: Js 9h 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.253% 55.25% 00.00% 547 0.00 { 4c4d }
Hand 1: 44.747% 44.75% 00.00% 443 0.00 { KsQs }

We generally would c-bet this flop to end the hand right here. We need to make about a pot sized bet to make his call incorrect, and with money left to bet on future streets and holding an underpair to the board this is more than we generally will want to bet, since we won't really want to give up on the turn most of the time when we most likely will have even more equity in the pot than we did on the flop.

If he folds on the flop, we gain the equity that he had in the pot. He is going to draw out on us ~45% of the time, and we would rather just end the hand here and realize 100% of the pot.

Often times it is not correct to bet an amount that will give your opponent improper odds for them to draw against us. So the only mistake that we can get them to make is to get them to fold when the odds say they should call. This is clearly in line with the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

The above example was based on complete knowledge of our opponents cards, but assuming that he doesn't have knowledge of our cards (or doesn't understand the Fundamental Theorem of Poker, as he would call when given proper odds if he understands this theorem). An example can be made as well given incomplete knowledge (hand ranges) it just makes everything much more complicated with similar results.

[crunny]

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Could someone explain why call > shove here?

As a general rule, if I plan to call a river shove, I would rather be the one shoving on the turn. Is there something wrong with that rule? If so, what and why?

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In this particular hand i agree that shoving turn is better than calling turn and river becuase:

1. Villain never checks a better hand on the river
2. Villain wont bluff shove river cause the pots too big, giving us sick odds. Villain will c/f most hands we beat.
3. Villain may call our turn shove with a draw but as mentioned in point 2 he will c/f river.

I really cant think of a good reason not to shove turn IF we plan on calling river.