Controlling Pot Size

[ringoquads]

I wasn't sure if this post should go here or in the begginers forum.
Controlling pot size- one of the few concepts I cannot wrap my head around. Any thoughts on this guys?
It dosn't matter the game or limit, as this pertains to every poker game.

[Albert Moulton]

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I wasn't sure if this post should go here or in the begginers forum.
Controlling pot size- one of the few concepts I cannot wrap my head around. Any thoughts on this guys?
It dosn't matter the game or limit, as this pertains to every poker game.

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Get NLHETAP and PNLHE. They explain this pretty well.

But the short answer is that since the size of most bets are based on the size of the pot, making the pot big on earlier streets will guarentee that you're all-in at or before the river in medium-stack games (stacks of about 100 big blind (bb) per player).

On the other hand, if you can bet less than the pot, or check on a street or two, then you can get to the river for less than your entire stack. That kind of pot-control on the flop and turn often allows you to get the most from hands you beat, and lose the least on later streets to hands that beat you.

For example, many times top-pair and overpair hands are good, but not great. For example a player with a big pair in early position in a 100bb NLHE game might raise preflop, make a 2/3-pot continuation bet on the flop, check/call the turn, and then either check/call or bet/fold depending on the texture of the board and the tendencies of the villain in the hand (i.e. if villain was probably drawing and likes to bluff bet with missed draws, then check/call is probably bets. etc.). This player is said to have exercised "pot-control" on the flop and turn in order to avoid being all-in or completely pot-committed by the river.

However, if that hero with the over-pair, above, raises preflop (4bb), bets the pot on the flop (8bb), then bets the pot on the turn (24), he's now committed 36bb of his stack, made the pot 72bb, and only has 64bb left behind for the river. At this point, he really can't fold. The pot is so big, he can bet (allowing a villain with a missed draw to fold), or he can check/call. But, he's now pretty much pot-committed. He's let the pot-size get out of contol on early streets to the point that on the final street he has to put in that last 64bb if he's anywhere close to 50% to win. Even if he's 55% sure that he's beaten, the pot-odds demand a call. He can't get away.

If he'd only checked on one street, or maybe bet less than the pot on one or two streets, then he might have avoided getting pot-committed by the river. And, if villain makes a show of aggression, he might be able to put his opponent on a range of hands given the board, stack sizes, pot size, and villain's prior reads that make it correct for him to fold his overpair without losing his entire stack.

[PantsOnFire]

Step 1 - be in position. Checking behind in position is one of the best ways to control the pot size.

Step 2 - be the pf raiser. When you are the raiser, you are in control of the hand and people will generally wait to see what you are going to do.

Some examples:

A. You are on the button with QQ. You raise and get one caller. Flop comes A J 2 rainbow. Caller checks to you. The most common play here is to check behind and not c-bet. If caller has an A, he will call most bets. If he has something like 55 or 87s, he will likely fold to a bet. So keep the pot small here and maybe make a small value bet on the river.

B. You limp with 76s on the button in a 4 way pot. The flop comes K 8 5. rainbow. It's either checked to you there's a 1/2 pot bet and a few calls. Don't bother raising here, just check or call and see the turn. Now if you hit your draw, you build the pot on the turn.

These are both situations where you may or may not have the best hand and in the first you are unlikely to improve while in the second, you want the pot small until you are sure you make the best hand and then start raising.

As well, the first example with QQ is one where you are way ahead or way behind. If you are way behind, you don't want to put money in the pot and if you are way ahead, you might get a value bet called if villain makes a second best hand or feels you are blufing.

[cynic757]

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Some examples:

A. You are on the button with QQ. You raise and get one caller. Flop comes A J 2 rainbow. Caller checks to you. The most common play here is to check behind and not c-bet. If caller has an A, he will call most bets. If he has something like 55 or 87s, he will likely fold to a bet. So keep the pot small here and maybe make a small value bet on the river.


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Like most situations "it depends", but if you take this line regularly I think you're giving up significant value.

What do you do when the villian bets 3/4 pot on the turn? Then a 1/2 pot bet on the river?

Bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop and be done with the hand in most situations as described.

[ringoquads]

Pants and Albert
Thank you both very very much. Your words really got the concept strait in my head.

[mvdgaag]

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Like most situations "it depends", but if you take this line regularly I think you're giving up significant value.

What do you do when the villian bets 3/4 pot on the turn? Then a 1/2 pot bet on the river?

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Your examples where villain bets are way too general to have any meaning. In general, if villain starts betting, I'm reevaluating the situation.

About giving up value, you are correct. But you are only giving up value if your opponents are playing very bad. Against calling stations you should probably almost always valuebet every street, but against decent opponents you will get the maximum when you have the best hand and lose the minimum when you don't if you keep the pot small with just one pair. Big pots are for big hands and one pair is almost never a big hand.

What do you do with just one pair after you bet this turn if your opponent gets agressive on the river or reraises you here? You have invested a lot in the pot, but have enough chips left to have to fold to a big bet.

[iillllii]

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What do you do with just one pair after you bet this turn if your opponent gets agressive on the river or reraises you here? You have invested a lot in the pot, but have enough chips left to have to fold to a big bet.

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I thought the guy was advocating betting 2/3 the pot on the flop, and if called, check/folding the turn... not betting the turn as you mention.

Being the preflop raiser, you have fold equity with the ace hitting on the flop. However, if called, there is a good chance that villian has the ace and you're way behind. Even if he's only got a draw or a kickerless ace, its still tough to get those hands to fold with a 2nd barrel.

[mvdgaag]

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What do you do with just one pair after you bet this turn if your opponent gets agressive on the river or reraises you here? You have invested a lot in the pot, but have enough chips left to have to fold to a big bet.

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I thought the guy was advocating betting 2/3 the pot on the flop, and if called, check/folding the turn... not betting the turn as you mention.

Being the preflop raiser, you have fold equity with the ace hitting on the flop. However, if called, there is a good chance that villian has the ace and you're way behind. Even if he's only got a draw or a kickerless ace, its still tough to get those hands to fold with a 2nd barrel.

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Yes, I understood and agree with 'the guy', wether you mean pantsonfire ot albert moulton. I was replying to cynic757 who said:

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I think you're giving up significant value.

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[iillllii]

Let me clarify...

Pants on Fire originally advocating checking behind on the ace high flop, hoping to get to the river cheap or free and then value betting there.

Then cynic jumped in and said that checking behind leaves value on the table, and that you should bet 2/3 the pot on the flop, and 'be done with the hand in most situations..' I originally took that last phrase to mean check/fold (give up/ be done with) the turn if called.

But then it seems you interpreted that phrase as him advocating betting each street, when you responded to him with "What do you do with just one pair after you bet this turn if your opponent gets agressive on the river or reraises you here?"

So my post was to point out that cynic never necessarily advocated betting the turn. I thought he actually advocated check/folding the turn...

but on a second review though it appears that when cynic wrote 'and then be down with the hand in most situations', he might have actually meant to suggest that the 2/3 pot flop bet will usually win the hand outright. Meaning he never addressed what to do on the turn or river one way or another.

[sniperjoe]

Can you say feelr bet???