JJ turbosqueeze. dumb?

[TiltedFox]

You're missing my and everyone elses point. You are only ever going to get people to call with better hands (never worse) when you push all-in in that situation. You are losing any extra value you would make by getting people to call a normal raise with an inferior hand and even more if they hit a bit of the flop and stack off to you.

Is there a reason why you think that JJ is the one and only hand that should plays better if you just push it all-in preflop?

[DaycareInferno]

i'm not missing your point. its just that:

a)your point is wrong: at nl10, vs. 5 villains at once, a push into a pot where every other player has either raised or call a raise WILL be called by hands worse than JJ and it WONT be that rare. this is a dime table, not the belagio players only room.

b) i simply don't care if everyone folds with that much money already in the pot, and its going to take more to convince me that i'm losing value other than just saying it over and over. what ranges are calling my huge raise that aren't calling my ai, and how much value am i gaining from them oop with JJ post flop?

[DaycareInferno]

lets say for instance that mp has a 77. his stack is 5.95 after calling the .30 raise to enter the pot. if i raise all-in, he would be correct to fold. if i make a pot sized raise, he would be correct to fold, so against a player making the correct play, i gain 0 value in this case.

now lets say this guy is a bad player. if this bad player would make the bad play of calling off 1.80, leaving himself with just 4.15 to try and catch a set, would we say that there's a 0% chance that he calls a push? if he incorrectly calls a push 1/3 as often as he calls a raise to try and hit a set, are we gaining or losing value?

lets say for the sake of simplicity, that we win his 1.80 7/8 times that he calls our raise, and we win his 5.95 4/5 times he calls our push. we make 1.35 for each raise called and 1.19 for each 3 ai, 1 of which gets called. that's close enough that you need better estimates, and you need to account for hand play.

[DaycareInferno]

example 2: mp has KK and was just being sneaky by cold calling the pf raise. i make a pot sized raise, utg folts, mp raises 5.95 all-in 3 folds. i call. my odds of beating KK with JJ are approximately the same as my odds of beating KK with JJ were before.

[Pants Optional]

daycare, why did you make this topic? youre obviously not listening to anyone, you just wanted to hear people say "you did the right thing", didnt you?

[DaycareInferno]

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daycare, why did you make this topic? youre obviously not listening to anyone, you just wanted to hear people say "you did the right thing", didnt you?

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no. i'm not convinced one way or the other, myself. i just think its a lot more complex than just "you're only going to get called by a better hand". i think its interesting, and i'd like to break it down, as opposed to just dismissing it without giving it any real thought.

[SunyD]

How would everyone play this if he had AKs, instead of JJ?

There was a topic a few weeks ago, with an almost identical situation. It seemed the consensus by everyone was to push all-in preflop with the AKs (and just pick up the money in the pot, and if you do get called - at least your not in that bad of shape).

Why is this play significantly different with JJ? The same reasoning makes sense - pick up the money, and if you get called, at least your not in that bad of shape.

[mvdgaag]

Pushing is obviously a bad play since you are not getting any more money out of worse hands (unless your opponents are really, really fishy). It's not as bad as some people here suggest though, because all these callers are not likely to have AA-QQ as they would have 3bet themselves. If many villains like to call with suited aces/kings and broadway hands I like a big bet here, since you can hardly flop any A..Q and not be beat by one of all these opponents. You can't call and play for set value either, because this pot is worth fighting for.

Raise enough to get one, maybe two callers and put it in on most flops.

[Arctic]

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You are only ever going to get people to call with better hands (never worse) when you push all-in in that situation. You are losing any extra value you would make by getting people to call a normal raise with an inferior hand

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This is the point. There is 1.5$ in the pot, but you want to get more from WORSE hands.


1. You push AI preflop. Usually everyone folds and you get 1.5$. Every now and then someone has a QQ+ and you get stacked.

2. You make normal BIG raise. Half of a time a worse hand calls you and therefore you will win MORE money. And now you can make ANOTHER +EV decision, whetever it is pushing or folding.

[DaycareInferno]

Axs/Kxs/QJ type hands can't correctly call a pot sized raise here though. yes, they might, but isn't the same guy that makes a terrible pf call with these hands also more likely than normal to make a terrible pf call of an ai with TT-? that's what i dont understand about this whole reasoning. if a guy is dumb enough to call a 20bb raise with A8 and then stack off on an 863 board, why is this guy going to be any less stupid when it comes to deciding what AI raises to call?