$1.2 mattiesmattie Problem hands - part 2 - Page 3

ymu · #21 08-04-2007, 06:09 PM

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Yes, sorry, but you understand the point I was trying to make.

In a tourney it's not good enough to just get your chips in ahead. in a ring game you can push your 51%/49% hands all in and it be +ev, not nescesarily in MTT's or STT's.

I am aware that is not anything that anyone doesn't allready know, just that it's easy to forget when analysing a push.

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For sure - it's just not helpful to think this way in an STT when you have to make a lot of marginal pushes. Being appropriately fearless with your pushes early makes it more likely that you have enough chips to survive a beat later on. Worrying about the cumulative probability of donking out without realising that cumulating chips insures against this when noone can reload is just not useful.

DeuceSeven · #22 08-04-2007, 06:21 PM

Hand 1b is fine.
Hand 2b is a clear push.
Hand 3b is fine.
Hand 4b get it all in pf with QQ+.

I expect big things from you. A lot of players in the beginners forum moan about going broke and all their big hands get cracked and that if they weren't unlucky they'd be a winner. What they don't realize is that by not studying, not posting hands, not thinking about poker that they are doomed to fail. It seems you've taken another approach willing to post hands and work on your game. Keep it up and you'll be playing 60s pretty soon.

hitch1978 · #23 08-04-2007, 06:28 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Yes, sorry, but you understand the point I was trying to make.

In a tourney it's not good enough to just get your chips in ahead. in a ring game you can push your 51%/49% hands all in and it be +ev, not nescesarily in MTT's or STT's.

I am aware that is not anything that anyone doesn't allready know, just that it's easy to forget when analysing a push.

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For sure - it's just not helpful to think this way in an STT when you have to make a lot of marginal pushes. Being appropriately fearless with your pushes early makes it more likely that you have enough chips to survive a beat later on. Worrying about the cumulative probability of donking out without realising that cumulating chips insures against this when noone can reload is just not useful.

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You are of course 100% correct, I was purely trying to give a frame of referance to this...

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My new knowledge seems to backfire at me. Whenever I shove I seem to get called by worse hand and get outdrawn. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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The better you are at SNGs the more times you'll get sucked out on instead of doing the sucking out since you get your chips in more often than not as the favorite ... It's normal ... It sucks to lose, but always remember it's a good sign if you get sucked out on and lose than if you get outplayed and lose ... If you get sucked out on and lose, you're unlucky, if you get outplayed and lose, you're, well, not as good as your competition (and we'll leave it at that nice verbage LOL) ...

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because while no-one has said anything 'incorrect' I think that the above information CAN be dangerous if thought of in a vaccume.

ymu · #24 08-04-2007, 06:42 PM

It's not dangerous to realise that getting sucked out on a lot is a good sign that you're playing well (and against worse opponents). If you can be genuinely pleased that you got him to put all his money in as a huge dog, a beat will never put you on tilt again.

Anyways ... don't think we're really disagreeing on much. I'll shut up. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

dwigt · #25 08-04-2007, 07:05 PM

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4b: I go to the felt with QQ this early every time. Hands as bad as KQ, AT, and TT are in an unknown's all-in call range in Level 1 in a $1.20.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 61.742% 60.92% 00.82% 557075460 7471242.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 38.258% 37.44% 00.82% 342352392 7471242.00 { TT+, ATs+, KQs, ATo+, KQo }

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I think in a $1.20 taking an early 60-40 flip makes money, but I am not sure that it makes the most money. I am sure 30%+ ROI is sustainable at this level and it is probably more like 40-50%. If you have a 40% ROI then to take a 60-40 flip you need to have an ROI of 100*(1.4/.6-1)=133% conditional on a double up. So for a $1.2 you would need to average $2.8. I'm not sure, maybe a double up helps this much, but I don't think so. All that said, I instapush hand 4.

DeuceSeven · #26 08-04-2007, 07:34 PM

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4b: I go to the felt with QQ this early every time. Hands as bad as KQ, AT, and TT are in an unknown's all-in call range in Level 1 in a $1.20.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 61.742% 60.92% 00.82% 557075460 7471242.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 38.258% 37.44% 00.82% 342352392 7471242.00 { TT+, ATs+, KQs, ATo+, KQo }

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I think in a $1.20 taking an early 60-40 flip makes money, but I am not sure that it makes the most money. I am sure 30%+ ROI is sustainable at this level and it is probably more like 40-50%. If you have a 40% ROI then to take a 60-40 flip you need to have an ROI of 100*(1.4/.6-1)=133% conditional on a double up. So for a $1.2 you would need to average $2.8. I'm not sure, maybe a double up helps this much, but I don't think so. All that said, I instapush hand 4.

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I'd have to say that villains range at a 1.20 is too narrow. If you can get it in as a 60/40 this early you take it every time.

mattiesmat · #27 08-04-2007, 08:24 PM

Haha, man I am making some profit since I started going all in with QQ after push/raise during the first level of blinds:

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1480)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t700)
Hero (t1500)
MP3 (t1400)
CO (t1500)
Button (t2440)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is in MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG raises to t40, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t120, MP3 raises to t1400 (All-in), CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls t1280

Flop: (t2870) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t2870) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t2870) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Results in bold below:
Hero has Qh, Qd (a pair of Queens)
MP3 has 5s, 5h (a pair of Fives)

pa3lsvt · #28 08-04-2007, 08:37 PM

A big percentage of the Level 1 pushes are by players that don't know how to play small pairs and put everyone on AK. (In addition to the wackos with J5o.) That's why I'll go to the felt with QQ+ all day in the early going, especially when there is a huge overpush in front of me. You double up many times more than you run into KK+. It's the minraise 3bet or 4bet that slows me down, because that's AK/KK+ more often than not.

taipan168 · #29 08-04-2007, 08:47 PM

I agree with everybody else about 4, shove it - as you can see you get called with SO much crap at the $1.20s that I can't imagine a situation where this would be -EV.

On Hand 3, with your stack size I think I tend to make it 400 to go preflop. This gives you the initiative on the flop and you have position on the limper.

ymu · #30 08-04-2007, 08:57 PM

I don't like a raise in hand 3 but does anyone like a push? There are multiple limpers, we are the huge stack and noone else has much more than 16BB - so we do have justification for the size of the bet given the effective stack size.

Now that we have everyone else sitting in the shadow of our chip stack I'm quite keen to send out a message that I do not want people limping ahead of me when I want to bully the blinds (unless they're prepared to fold to a push, obv).