I'm in ur flopz, holding top pairz

[Aaron W.]

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So what here is better option - check/fold after raise or donk flop/fold after 3bet?

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I don't like donking here at all. I'd rather use the relative position of having the PFR on our left to see how the rest of the table is going to respond.

If I donk into a PFR, it's because I really want to put in 3 bets instead of 2.

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scenario #1

what u do at flop when PFR bet and rest villians fold - call or c/r?
If u just call at flop u probably have to donk safe turn to doesnt give him free card to improve his overcards.

Its why i prefer HU flop c/r and lead turn, and fold after turn raise probably.

scenario #2

PFR bet and MP3 call ... what u do here ? If both villiands still drawing u cant give free card at turn so call flop and donk safe turn or c/r flop and lead turn?

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HU, I'm almost always check-raising. If I there is just one caller, I might check-raise anyway, or call and then donk the turn, depending on the perceived hand range for the caller. With multiple callers, I'm almost certainly just calling to see what the turn card brings.

If it comes back for two bets, I fold my top pair, relatively weak kicker.

The problem with donking is that unless you have a read that tells you PFR will raise overcards, most of the time you get a result that is no better than letting him lead out himself. If he has AK, then you end up with one bet going in from a bunch of players, which is roughly the same whether you bet or he bets. If he raises, you end up shutting out the rest of the field when you're drawing to a 3 or 5 outer, depending on what hand villain holds (AQ/KQ/AA/KK).

[Harv72b]

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The problem with donking is that unless you have a read that tells you PFR will raise overcards, most of the time you get a result that is no better than letting him lead out himself.

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The big difference is that you make it much less likely that another player will raise with a hand worse than yours, taking you out of the pot. I'm not sure how likely that it is in the .25/.50 game, but it should be a concern against decent (or just aggressive) opponents. You also make it less likely that your other opponents will (over)call with unimproved pocket pairs < JJ, which, again, means that MP1 will not be getting correct odds to call your turn bet with AK when he flat calls the flop donk.

[Aaron W.]

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The problem with donking is that unless you have a read that tells you PFR will raise overcards, most of the time you get a result that is no better than letting him lead out himself.

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The big difference is that you make it much less likely that another player will raise with a hand worse than yours, taking you out of the pot. I'm not sure how likely that it is in the .25/.50 game, but it should be a concern against decent (or just aggressive) opponents. You also make it less likely that your other opponents will (over)call with unimproved pocket pairs < JJ, which, again, means that MP1 will not be getting correct odds to call your turn bet with AK when he flat calls the flop donk.

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You're assuming a lot of poker-thinking by MP, which I think is fine from an exercise perspective but not good in this application. However, I caution you against thinking that a decent player will see the donk as strength, especially on this board.

But anyway, I would not worry about getting knocked off the best hand unless there is an explicit aggressive read to think about. And if it's possible that MP will raise PFR's c-bet with a wide range of hands, I don't mind check/3-betting to get PFR off of his overcards.

[Harv72b]

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You're assuming a lot of poker-thinking by MP, which I think is fine from an exercise perspective but not good in this application. However, I caution you against thinking that a decent player will see the donk as strength, especially on this board.

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I don't think he will see it as strength. I was going off of your statement that MP1 often won't raise the flop donk with a worse hand; as far as the rest of the field goes, if you're MP3 or BB are you overcalling on that flop with 88? I'm not saying that they never will, nor even that MP3 won't decide to 3bet with 88 sometimes. I'm just saying that it's far less likely that MP3 or BB will call (or raise) with hands like that if we make the first bet, vs. MP1 making what appears to be a continuation bet.

The fact of the matter is that there are two things which we absolutely want once this flop comes down:

1) See a turn card as cheaply as possible.
2) If we do hold the best hand, win this pot as quicky & as often as possible.

I believe that betting into the PFR does the best job of accomplishing both goals. Especially if we don't believe that MP1 will raise the flop with a hand which doesn't beat top pair, it should also give us a much better idea of how our hand stacks up than checking would. In turn allowing us to play our own hand more correctly.

[Aaron W.]

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The fact of the matter is that there are two things which we absolutely want once this flop comes down:

1) See a turn card as cheaply as possible.
2) If we do hold the best hand, win this pot as quicky & as often as possible.

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Your goals don't seem consistent with your line. For example, by betting, you fail to allow yourself the opportunity to see the turn card *FOR FREE*. This is the best possible result for #1. But if you see the turn card for free, you have most likely just allowed a free card to fall when you have the best hand.

I don't agree that these are you primary goals in this spot. Here's what I want:

* Maximize the number of times I get involved with the best hand
* Minimize the number of times I get involved without the best hand

Leading out accomplishes neither of these goals. Checked to see how the rest of the table reacts to a likely c-bet allows them both to happen.

[tailspin4540]

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The fact of the matter is that there are two things which we absolutely want once this flop comes down:

1) See a turn card as cheaply as possible.
2) If we do hold the best hand, win this pot as quicky & as often as possible.

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Your goals don't seem consistent with your line. For example, by betting, you fail to allow yourself the opportunity to see the turn card *FOR FREE*. This is the best possible result for #1. But if you see the turn card for free, you have most likely just allowed a free card to fall when you have the best hand.

I don't agree that these are you primary goals in this spot. Here's what I want:

* Maximize the number of times I get involved with the best hand
* Minimize the number of times I get involved without the best hand

Leading out accomplishes neither of these goals. Checked to see how the rest of the table reacts to a likely c-bet allows them both to happen.

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I don't think we can assume we're going to see a free turn, and I don't want my opponents to see a free turn. Leading won't get us to the turn for free, but we might have the best hand even though I posted earlier that I think we're behind, and it may save us a bet when we don't (maybe MP1 just calls, and MP3 doesn't raise.)

Harv also said:
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So in effect, checking the flop (and then 3betting when it comes back 2 bets to you) often forces you to put in 4 big bets postflop, while you can get to a showdown for just 3 BBs by bet/calling the flop (bet/folding if it's raised & 3bet) and then check/calling down. Or get out of the hand after putting in 1 BB postflop if you decide you believe MP1 & just check/fold the turn (now not getting immediate odds to draw at a 5-outer, although you could justify the call anyway if you believe you can get 1 bet out of him on the river when you hit).

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I also think checking makes it too easy for us to possibly get blown off the best hand. The way the original hand plays out, we're in a terrible spot because we're not closing the action when it comes back to us. Do we really want to call two cold with the PFR and flop bettor still to act behind us?

[Aaron W.]

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Harv also said:
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So in effect, checking the flop (and then 3betting when it comes back 2 bets to you) often forces you to put in 4 big bets postflop, while you can get to a showdown for just 3 BBs by bet/calling the flop (bet/folding if it's raised & 3bet) and then check/calling down. Or get out of the hand after putting in 1 BB postflop if you decide you believe MP1 & just check/fold the turn (now not getting immediate odds to draw at a 5-outer, although you could justify the call anyway if you believe you can get 1 bet out of him on the river when you hit).

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I also think checking makes it too easy for us to possibly get blown off the best hand. The way the original hand plays out, we're in a terrible spot because we're not closing the action when it comes back to us. Do we really want to call two cold with the PFR and flop bettor still to act behind us?

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I don't know why there's so much fear of folding the best hand. There's a saying that starts, "If you never fold the best hand..." You're right that you don't really want to coldcall two. With no specific aggressive reads, this is not a situation where I'm particularly happy mixing it up OOP against two aggressors. So just muck it.

Harv's line is short-sighted because his goal is clearly "get to showdown cheaply" which still isn't the right goal. A large percent of the time if you donk and get raised, then call down, you lose to AJ or an overpair. So Harv's line is putting himself in position to get the worst of it.

I also want to point out the following information:

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table conditions were good.

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I would interpret this information to say that the other players behind him were generally loose and passive. This is more reason to not feel bad about folding.

[RemyXO]

I haven't been back for a few days, and WOW, this turned out to be an excellent thread, I am putting it into my favorites.

Lemme sift through all responses and then post my thinking (or lack thereof) in this hand. Haven't had this much (deserved) tough love for a while! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]