3/6 razz steal/resteal - 1st razz session ever - Page 2

WhiteWolf · #11 08-01-2007, 01:40 PM

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You're getting plenty good odds to catch fourth against a brick, which is the thing that really matters.

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But it's going to be a raised pot, so even if we catch good + our opponent catches bad, it's not like we can win it outright on forth. We're getting called there by both knowledgeable opponents as well as the loosies who will play a bad card regardless of pot size. By calling third, we're going to end up investing a lot more bets on future streets in an attempt to win what's in the pot after our steal attempt is raised. Best to surrender now.

WhiteWolf · #12 08-01-2007, 01:43 PM

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Fourth is an easy fold.

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I agree we should fold third, but as played I don't see us folding 4th. We have 3 lows + 1 high in a raised pot: If hero's hand was (68)3 and he caught the J on 4th we'd be advocating a call with the same action, correct? In this case, our hand is even stronger because our J is hidden.

Andy B · #13 08-01-2007, 07:56 PM

In razz, it's standard if you complete on a steal and someone else raises. If you completed with a real hand, you have to call and call again on fourth. In stud and stud/8, you will sometimes complete with a big pair and then fold when a probable bigger pair raises, but this isn't automatic.

DrewOnTilt · #14 08-01-2007, 08:46 PM

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Does Cardrunners have a lot of stuff on stud games? How do you find their advice? I'm assuming you meant their opponent's play was bad.

Patty

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Since I had 0 experience playing Razz up until 2 days ago, I can't accurately comment on the quality of the analysis in the Cardrunners video. I will say that overall I find their holdem advice to be solid. I found 3 Razz videos but no other Stud videos.

And I did mean that their opponent's play was bad. Not BAD, even, just downright awful.

SGspecial · #15 08-02-2007, 02:24 AM

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Does Cardrunners have a lot of stuff on stud games? How do you find their advice? I'm assuming you meant their opponent's play was bad.

Patty

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Since I had 0 experience playing Razz up until 2 days ago, I can't accurately comment on the quality of the analysis in the Cardrunners video. I will say that overall I find their holdem advice to be solid. I found 3 Razz videos but no other Stud videos.

And I did mean that their opponent's play was bad. Not BAD, even, just downright awful.

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While I am the last person who will ever defend the quality of play of the average razz player, I'm curious about your assessment of the villains in the videos Drew. What sort of plays were they making that were awful? Did the instructor point out that they were awful plays? Also, while you're obv an experienced poker players, you're a newb at razz by your own admission. On what basis are you judging their play then?

DrewOnTilt · #16 08-02-2007, 10:15 PM

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Does Cardrunners have a lot of stuff on stud games? How do you find their advice? I'm assuming you meant their opponent's play was bad.

Patty

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Since I had 0 experience playing Razz up until 2 days ago, I can't accurately comment on the quality of the analysis in the Cardrunners video. I will say that overall I find their holdem advice to be solid. I found 3 Razz videos but no other Stud videos.

And I did mean that their opponent's play was bad. Not BAD, even, just downright awful.

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While I am the last person who will ever defend the quality of play of the average razz player, I'm curious about your assessment of the villains in the videos Drew. What sort of plays were they making that were awful? Did the instructor point out that they were awful plays? Also, while you're obv an experienced poker players, you're a newb at razz by your own admission. On what basis are you judging their play then?

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Yes, the commentator did comment a bit on why certain plays made by the opponents were bad, and why he (hero) made certain plays. In the one video that I watched, the commentator played heads-up against a random donk for the first 30 mintues or so before anyone else joined the table. The donk was constantly calling after catching bricks when the hero caught good, calling against an open complete from a small card with a King up, etc. Some of the players who join the table later in the video make similar plays.

SGspecial · #17 08-02-2007, 10:48 PM

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Yes, the commentator did comment a bit on why certain plays made by the opponents were bad, and why he (hero) made certain plays. In the one video that I watched, the commentator played heads-up against a random donk for the first 30 mintues or so before anyone else joined the table. The donk was constantly calling after catching bricks when the hero caught good, calling against an open complete from a small card with a King up, etc. Some of the players who join the table later in the video make similar plays.

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Yes, that's a very common donk play. There was some heated discussion here a few months ago about when it's worth defending your bring in, but I think any knowledgable player would agree that HU with a K door card vs. a bike card is not one of those spots.

Praxising · #18 08-03-2007, 01:11 AM

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Yes, that's a very common donk play. There was some heated discussion here a few months ago about when it's worth defending your bring in, but I think any knowledgable player would agree that HU with a K door card vs. a bike card is not one of those spots.

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Uh-oh.

I made a POT of money today doing this very thing - but - well - THEY WERE WAY BIGGER DONKS THAN ME.

No, really. One of 'em would come in with a 3, I'd call with A2K, I'd get a 7, he'd get a J, I'd bet, he'd fold. Either one of them, or all three of them. Strangest thing I ever saw - I was stealing at will.

Then a real player came to the table and we split the money. It was surreal. I kept thinking - "this is not good for your game, you're gonna get arrogant and lose a huge hand to one of these guys...."

Anyway - it was good - I needed the cushion for all the times I am the biggest hee-haw at table.

Sometimes, just sometimes, I do believe against some players, you are at least even money with a brick showing against a spoke.

Use standard safe-handling procedures, of course.

SGspecial · #19 08-03-2007, 01:36 PM

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Yes, that's a very common donk play. There was some heated discussion here a few months ago about when it's worth defending your bring in, but I think any knowledgable player would agree that HU with a K door card vs. a bike card is not one of those spots.

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Uh-oh.

I made a POT of money today doing this very thing - but - well - THEY WERE WAY BIGGER DONKS THAN ME.

No, really. One of 'em would come in with a 3, I'd call with A2K, I'd get a 7, he'd get a J, I'd bet, he'd fold. Either one of them, or all three of them. Strangest thing I ever saw - I was stealing at will.

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I did say knowledgable . [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

In your case, it was not a HU game between you and one opponent, but a HU hand where you suspected the villain of trying to steal the antes. In a HU game there are only two antes to shoot for and unless they're absurdly high they're not usually worth fighting uphill to take.

Praxising · #20 08-03-2007, 03:46 PM

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I did say knowledgable . [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Ah....my bad. Here's some knowledge I have: if you start with a 3-wheel, the probability you'll make a 7-hi by the river is about 32%. If you start with a 2-wheel and a K, that probability drops to about 10%. Huge difference, obviously.

What would be interesting to know is the probability that one opponent (you are playing HU, whether there were more players in the game initially or not)will catch a card higher than a 9 and you will catch one lower resulting in a level playing field.

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.... a HU hand where you suspected the villain of trying to steal the antes.

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No, not what I described. I described a ridiculously LAG player who would raise with KK2, or anything else in the hole if he was showing a wheel card without regard to position or prior players in the pot or to come or any other thing.

It is not carved in stone that a K vs 3 should not play HU. In HU, unlike any other situation, many players, including my ignorant self, will raise you every time I have a 6 or better facing any paint you show. If you are folding every time, that will be just fine, thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]