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#81
08-02-2007, 12:57 PM
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Re: A revision of the OP and some new questions
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen some posts in here comparing fetuses to toenails and deeming the fetus-preserving machine to be some kind of a supermachine that can magically turn any skin cell to a human being. [/ QUOTE ] C- It's unfortunate you missed the point of the analogy, your comment on it would be helpful. ( note- fetuses weren't being compared to fetuses...sigh, and skin cells to fetuses is far from magic). The OP created an arbitrary condition "we can keep it alive and nuture it's growth" as having key significance in an abortion debate. The "we can create fetuses, too. What rights would they have?" which is what the skin cell situation raises is meant to challenge the very off-the-point "super incubator" way of looking at abortions. As you can see from other posts, including your own, "Rights" are an issue, certainly a very fundamental issue. To pretend that assisted viability of whatever sort is 'THE' premise or even a meaningful premise to work from is like talking about rabbits in a room full of wolves. luckyme 
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#82
08-02-2007, 01:07 PM
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Re: Better Restated Abortion Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No, I think what DS is saying is that, *if* the pro-abortionists' claim boils down to "I can do what I want with my body (including any life form attached to my body against my wishes)," then logically that claim no longer applies once the fetus is alive and well and is no longer a part of a woman's body. [/ QUOTE ] Well duh if its not part of their body then nothing follows when its not part of their body. [/ QUOTE ] So, who has ownership of my appendix after it is removed? Are you saying I have no rights to it once it is removed from my body? [/ QUOTE ] No but whatever rights you have are not because its part of your body (coz it isn't any more). We own plenty of things that aren't part of our bodies. chez
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#83
08-02-2007, 01:12 PM
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Re: Better Restated Abortion Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No, I think what DS is saying is that, *if* the pro-abortionists' claim boils down to "I can do what I want with my body (including any life form attached to my body against my wishes)," then logically that claim no longer applies once the fetus is alive and well and is no longer a part of a woman's body. [/ QUOTE ] Well duh if its not part of their body then nothing follows when its not part of their body. [/ QUOTE ] So, who has ownership of my appendix after it is removed? Are you saying I have no rights to it once it is removed from my body? [/ QUOTE ] No but whatever rights you have are not because its part of your body (coz it isn't any more). We own plenty of things that aren't part of our bodies. chez [/ QUOTE ] OK. So we still own our body parts once they are removed, right? That's because we owned them prior to their removal, right? Or are you saying otherwise?
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#84
08-02-2007, 01:22 PM
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Re: Better Restated Abortion Question
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OK. So we still own our body parts once they are removed, right? That's because we owned them prior to their removal, right? Or are you saying otherwise? [/ QUOTE ] Let's say, regardless of the validity of it, that my liver inside me belongs to me and I have the right to determine it's fate. I cut open my abdomen and slowly remove my liver place it gently in a bowl and put it in the fridge. At what point did some other entity gain ownership and rights over my liver? or have they yet? Obviously, if my premise of livers-inside-me-are-mine is not conceded, then the rest can be ignored. luckyme
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#85
08-02-2007, 01:24 PM
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Re: Better Restated Abortion Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No, I think what DS is saying is that, *if* the pro-abortionists' claim boils down to "I can do what I want with my body (including any life form attached to my body against my wishes)," then logically that claim no longer applies once the fetus is alive and well and is no longer a part of a woman's body. [/ QUOTE ] Well duh if its not part of their body then nothing follows when its not part of their body. [/ QUOTE ] So, who has ownership of my appendix after it is removed? Are you saying I have no rights to it once it is removed from my body? [/ QUOTE ] No but whatever rights you have are not because its part of your body (coz it isn't any more). We own plenty of things that aren't part of our bodies. chez [/ QUOTE ] OK. So we still own our body parts once they are removed, right? That's because we owned them prior to their removal, right? Or are you saying otherwise? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not saying otherwise but it is the question isn't it. Does a woman own the fetus once its removed? if not what why not? That's the issue here. Despite claims that its a matter of logical errors, it isn't. Its just a matter of the status of the fetus. chez
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#86
08-02-2007, 01:27 PM
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Re: Better Restated Abortion Question
[ QUOTE ]
That's the issue here. Despite claims that its a matter of logical errors, it isn't. Its just a matter of the status of the fetus. chez [/ QUOTE ] One would think so. Despite Red Whales of super-incubators or women having infanticidal complexes or whether it can twin or ... luckyme
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#87
08-02-2007, 02:26 PM
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Re: Better Restated Abortion Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] That's the issue here. Despite claims that its a matter of logical errors, it isn't. Its just a matter of the status of the fetus. chez [/ QUOTE ] One would think so. Despite Red Whales of super-incubators or women having infanticidal complexes or whether it can twin or ... luckyme [/ QUOTE ] Well, 2 of the smartest people in this forum agree (and me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), so ... I guess the burden to prove otherwise is on the OP. Why wouldn't my removed body part still belong to me? Any medical or legal professionals around to let us know what the current law is? If I have an appendectomy, do I own my appendix once it's removed? Can I put it in a jar & take it home with me?
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#88
08-02-2007, 11:41 PM
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Re: A revision of the OP and some new questions
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I've seen some posts in here comparing fetuses to toenails and deeming the fetus-preserving machine to be some kind of a supermachine that can magically turn any skin cell to a human being. [/ QUOTE ] C- It's unfortunate you missed the point of the analogy, your comment on it would be helpful. ( note- fetuses weren't being compared to fetuses...sigh, and skin cells to fetuses is far from magic). [/ QUOTE ] So are you saying the technology exists to turn a toenail into a newborn? [ QUOTE ] The OP created an arbitrary condition "we can keep it alive and nuture it's growth" as having key significance in an abortion debate. The "we can create fetuses, too. What rights would they have?" which is what the skin cell situation raises is meant to challenge the very off-the-point "super incubator" way of looking at abortions. [/ QUOTE ] I thought the key point was that the fetus was no longer a part of the woman's body, and that pro-abortionists often use the "it's part of my body" argument. [ QUOTE ] As you can see from other posts, including your own, "Rights" are an issue, certainly a very fundamental issue. To pretend that assisted viability of whatever sort is 'THE' premise or even a meaningful premise to work from is like talking about rabbits in a room full of wolves. luckyme [/ QUOTE ] Again, I didn't see assisted viability as the key premise. The fact that the fetus is no longer a part of the woman's body seemed to be the distinction he was making. Some posts here have raised the issue of ownership in response; I'll get to them shortly.
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#89
08-02-2007, 11:48 PM
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Re: Better Restated Abortion Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No, I think what DS is saying is that, *if* the pro-abortionists' claim boils down to "I can do what I want with my body (including any life form attached to my body against my wishes)," then logically that claim no longer applies once the fetus is alive and well and is no longer a part of a woman's body. [/ QUOTE ] Well duh if its not part of their body then nothing follows when its not part of their body. [/ QUOTE ] So, who has ownership of my appendix after it is removed? Are you saying I have no rights to it once it is removed from my body? [/ QUOTE ] No but whatever rights you have are not because its part of your body (coz it isn't any more). We own plenty of things that aren't part of our bodies. chez [/ QUOTE ] OK. So we still own our body parts once they are removed, right? That's because we owned them prior to their removal, right? Or are you saying otherwise? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not saying otherwise but it is the question isn't it. Does a woman own the fetus once its removed? if not what why not? That's the issue here. Despite claims that its a matter of logical errors, it isn't. Its just a matter of the status of the fetus. chez [/ QUOTE ] So if I'm following this correctly: -The fetus became the woman's exclusive property the moment it was conceived inside her body. -The woman continues to have exclusive ownership of the fetus after it is removed (without being terminated). -Therefore, the woman has the exclusive right to terminate the fetus (now outside her body) as long as it does not become human (since the moment the fetus becomes "human," it owns itself). OK thus far?
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#90
08-03-2007, 12:04 AM
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Re: A revision of the OP and some new questions
[ QUOTE ]
Do you regret not having all the potential babies you could have had, or still can have, if you and your wife wouldn't use birth control (and/or various birth control methods)? What about the aborted one makes you regret it and feel remorse for aborting it? Is it just the amount of time she carried it? Or something else? [/ QUOTE ] There are multiple levels to it. It is easy in hindsight after 8 more years of marriage, getting on firmer financial footing, finding your other 2 children so easy to raise (the most fulfilling experience in my life-- by far) to feel like having that child would have been nothing but more of a good thing. At the time however, it seemed like it could break us-- and we took very seriously the fact that we had 2 other small babies whom we wanted to raise in a solid family. It is ironic, but seeing the success of the very thing that weighed most heavily in favor of aborting, the love and desire to protect the 2 children we had, leads to the remorse in that it is impossible to imagine that a 3rd child would have brought anything other than more joy and fulfillment-- not just to us, but to our kids and obviously the third child itself. Also, no matter how much you minimize it in your brain, (which is much easier because a fetus is out of sight), the bottom line in abortion is taking a life-- even if you are legally permitted, and perhaps even ethically or morally justifed in doing so. There is such great gravity to it. I am not a church-goer, or religeous, but I DO believe in God in at least a spiritual way. There is NO greater gift God can bestow then a healthy child. Yes, I have free will, yes, having an abortion is legal, yes, I can say with complete and utter sincerity I think my wife and I made the best and most principled decision for everyone, but I cannot also escape the feeling that a very sane and rational person could justifiably view this as a purely utilitarian justification for murdering our own unborn child-- which is about as vile an act as is imaginable. To the extent you believe in God (regardless of whether you let it run your life, or whether you believe in quaint ideas like "heaven and hell") there is really no way to be completely comfortable with such a decision. Honestly, I don't think about it much, but, when I do, it is impossible not to feel regret.
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