Bad Bad flop play

[thepizzlefosho]

please c/r the flop. You have two guys who's pf hand ranges mean that they have been dealt two cards. You are waaaay ahead of those ranges. Plus once you c/r the field you look very strong, and it becomes very difficult for either player to bluff raise you on the turn.

Max value and take the initiative.

[Apanage]

I´m not at all concerned of that I don´t have the best hand.
I´m pretty confident of having the best hand..
I agree it is important to take the initiative in this hand that is why I think my flop play made me lose this hand.
However I´m not that sure we´re getting the most value of our hand by checkraising flop.Waiting to turn gives us the opportunity to see what cards that falls and I´m 80% sure that UTG bets turn also and probably gets a call from button.If he not bets turn Button will.

[thepizzlefosho]

[ QUOTE ]
I´m not at all concerned of that I don´t have the best hand.
I´m pretty confident of having the best hand..
I agree it is important to take the initiative in this hand that is why I think my flop play made me lose this hand.
However I´m not that sure we´re getting the most value of our hand by checkraising flop.Waiting to turn gives us the opportunity to see what cards that falls and I´m 80% sure that UTG bets turn also and probably gets a call from button.If he not bets turn Button will.

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But are you still going to c/r the turn if a AKJ or T falls? The point is that a lot of cards on the turn cause you to c/c the turn, and then watch him check behind on the river and roll over UI A-high. A flop c/r gets 1BB in the pot and then forces those A-highs to call two more BBs to get to SD. Also it make cause your opponent to incorrectly fold a 6 outer on the turn that should take one off.

I just don't think the 9 is a strong enough hand that you can wait for the turn and confidently make a c/r, and if you just call this flop you are losing a lot of value and making your turn play much more difficult.

[Apanage]

I don´t say that I´m right here.
But one thing is sure these guys won´t incorrectly fold a 6 outer.
The same cards that causes me to check/call turn is also cards that has the potential to raise me when I bet turn and I have to call that raise against these opponents as you can see by the results.
A great deal of more than half the deck will also give me the opportunity to a safe checkraise.
I can also think of checkraising T+ cards and I was curious of what cards you could think of CR turn with given that you took that line.
But you didn´t give me an answer on that because you didn´t think that a turn checkraise has any benefits.
I would say for sure that we can say that both players will see the river card even if I raise flop( no folding equity on turn) and one of them will bet turn if the flop is not raised. Doesn´t that change anything?

[thepizzlefosho]

[ QUOTE ]
I don´t say that I´m right here.
But one thing is sure these guys won´t incorrectly fold a 6 outer.
The same cards that causes me to check/call turn is also cards that has the potential to raise me when I bet turn and I have to call that raise against these opponents as you can see by the results.
A great deal of more than half the deck will also give me the opportunity to a safe checkraise.
I can also think of checkraising T+ cards and I was curious of what cards you could think of CR turn with given that you took that line.
But you didn´t give me an answer on that because you didn´t think that a turn checkraise has any benefits.
I would say for sure that we can say that both players will see the river card even if I raise flop( no folding equity on turn) and one of them will bet turn if the flop is not raised. Doesn´t that change anything?

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by the same token I am not saying that there is no merit to waiting to c/r the turn, but I definitely don't think there is *as much* merit, and it makes the hand much much more difficult to play.

I'm going to try to address everthing you wrote, but there was a lot so sorry if I miss something [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I think that if you c/r the flop you have shown enough strength that most players become less likely to bluff raise the turn. Plus if you have a read that this is in this player's arsenal then you are calling down anyway, but at least you aren't going to get 3-bet on the turn when he makes a pair if you c/r. So you really are guessing if +T (obv non-Q) card hits the turn whether or not you are right with your c/r, and if you are wrong you get 3-bet. the fact that they will bluff raise you shouldn't cause you to be scared to c/r the flop and lead the turn since you are going to get to SD anyway and if this player wants to throw an extra BB your way in the process so be it. Basically you lose more when behind by c/r'ing the turn, but don't necessarily make more when ahead assuming that they don't call on the river UI. However when you c/r the flop you are getting 1 more BB on the flop, likely 2 BBs on the turn, and probably 1 more on the river. However if you wait for the turn to c/r you are only getting 3 on the turn, and likely none on the river since it is unlikely that they are calling down UI. So your turn line nets the same when ahead, but if the turn hits villain and he 3-balls then you are screwed.

Also if the BB has a really weak hand and gets scared on the turn it might get checked around which is a disaster for your hand.

Plus by not c/r'ing the flop it becomes much more difficult to play the turn against aggro players since the scenario that actually happened can come up. Your turn fold was standard with 2 coming back to you, but it is not very likely for you to make a mistake like that if you c/r the flop. I guess the key is that villain's tend to play more honestly in big pots because they know that you are very likely SD-bound so their bluffs have a lot less equity. When we have strong but vulnerable hands we want to encourage people to play straight forward so that we don't make costly mistakes.

If I took your line I would c/r a Q,9, or anything below. And I think if the button folded waiting for the turn to c/r would be fine, but once the button comes along you really are losing too much value and making your hand too difficult to play.

Your play looks sexy and works out when the BB has a worse 9 and the the button decides to call the turn c/r with overs, the river blanks, and then you pwn the BB for 3-bets ont he big streets and squeak out two out of the button. But when the scare cards come and you don't know where you are at, or you get 3-bet by the button you are going to have very tough decisions to make.

I know this is kind of disjointed and rambling, but I am typing it at work in between by boss walking around the area. So hopefully it makes some sense.

[Apanage]

You did a good job explaining your point of view and it did make me lean more to a flop checkraise instead.
But some assumptions are wrong:

[Quote]However if you wait for the turn to c/r you are only getting 3 on the turn, and likely none on the river since it is unlikely that they are calling down UI. So your turn line nets the same when ahead, but if the turn hits villain and he 3-balls then you are screwed.[Quote/]

Button did call down bottom pair after getting checkraised on turn.So I think we can get river calls even with a turn CR line.
I also think that getting 3-bet bluffraised on a non-drawy board is far less likely to happen than a bluffreraise Especially if both opponents is still in the hand.
And because I´m almost sure of that UTG will bet one more time I also get to see if button (the player that benefits most from a broadway turn and therefore is the most likely player to 3-ball)likes a broadway card.
The reason why I think it was a mistake to not checkraise flop is still the fact that button was capable of bluffraising me out of the hand which wouldn´t have happened if I had the initiative.
If button hadn´t been capable of that bluffraise I think the turn checkraise would have been as good as a flop checkraise to get value from our opponents given the reads I posted.

[thepizzlefosho]

[ QUOTE ]
I also think that getting 3-bet bluffraised on a non-drawy board is far less likely to happen than a bluffreraise

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I totally agree and I think you are confusing what I was talking about. I am saying that when you c/r the turn and get 3-bet you are almost always behind, but you have to call at least the turn bet because the pot is big and you likely have 5 outs. The point is that if he hits on the turn you get pwned much worse if you wait to c/r.

this goes along with what I was saying about getting villains to play honestly. When you c/r the flop and lead at the turn (especially if the BB calls with his crappy pair) the pot has become big and the button (maybe subconciously) realizes that a bluff raise has little to no equity. It is a protected pot and so he has to play straight forward. this makes your hand play easily, and you can maximize value when ahead, and minimize losses when behind.