"Standard" (?) TPGK hand

[student_of_game]

NL400 6-max, Villain has $200 in front, I cover.

I don't have any real reads on villain - he hasn't done anything that struck me as out of line. I've been playing fairly tight, but won one nice-sized pot when an opponent made a pretty bizarro play.

Preflop: Folds to me on the button, and I pot it with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Villain in big blind calls.

Flop ($30, two players): K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Villain checks, and I bet $22. Villain calls. (I don't remember now if it was a quick call, but I think it was).

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Check, check.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Villain leads into me for a pot-sized bet.

I ??

Also, what do you think of the turn check? I figured betting the turn would only get worse hands to fold and bloat the pot. By checking behind turn, I'm hoping that villain makes a desperation bluff on a missed draw. Also, in the event my opponent has some weakish mid pocket pair hand, checking turn might allow me to value bet the river and get a call.

But, the river card is a little unpleasant since a flush draw got there and there is four to a straight as well.

[jj12]

I think you played it fine although you should bet/call turn if he is loose. River is easy fold.

[David1234]

I fold this w/o a read

[Praetor]

bet turn

[skier_5]

[ QUOTE ]
bet turn

[/ QUOTE ]

all day. im looking to get this in vs a 50bb monkey

[schwza]

i'd bet the turn. as played, fold river. it's not just the flush that got there, it's a bunch of two pair hands too.

[student_of_game]

Many people have advocated betting the turn. I have to admit that I don't have a strong inclination to do so in these types of situations for the reasons mentioned in the original post, and am wondering if this is a leak in my game.

When I raise pre-flop, I usually tend to fire a second shell even if I miss (unless there is some aspect of the other players in the hand or the board texture that might make be do otherwise). I suppose this is one argument for also betting the turn even when I connect. But somehow the argument doesn't seem strong enough.

The concern I have with betting this turn is that I would expect to only fold out weaker hands and get called by better ones. (The one exception being a draw where I might called even if I'm ahead.) Therefore, I might lose value from missed draws that bluff the river or weakish hands that check the river "to induce a bluff" and call a river value bet thinking I'm weak after having checked the turn.

Can someone provide a strong set of reasons to bet the turn? I can see reasons for going either way (basically, from what I'm hearing, betting the turn seems standard to many others, but not to me -- and it would be great to understand why that is).

[David1234]

[ QUOTE ]
Many people have advocated betting the turn. I have to admit that I don't have a strong inclination to do so in these types of situations for the reasons mentioned in the original post, and am wondering if this is a leak in my game.

When I raise pre-flop, I usually tend to fire a second shell even if I miss (unless there is some aspect of the other players in the hand or the board texture that might make be do otherwise). I suppose this is one argument for also betting the turn even when I connect. But somehow the argument doesn't seem strong enough.

The concern I have with betting this turn is that I would expect to only fold out weaker hands and get called by better ones. (The one exception being a draw where I might called even if I'm ahead.) Therefore, I might lose value from missed draws that bluff the river or weakish hands that check the river "to induce a bluff" and call a river value bet thinking I'm weak after having checked the turn.

Can someone provide a strong set of reasons to bet the turn? I can see reasons for going either way (basically, from what I'm hearing, betting the turn seems standard to many others, but not to me -- and it would be great to understand why that is).

[/ QUOTE ]
For value, you have no reason to believe you don't have the best hand. You have TP with the second best kicker and a short stack donk has check and called a bet, something he would do with a lot of holdings. You don't want to give him a free card to his draw, you want to make him pay. You also want to get value out of hands such as QJ and 10J and maybe even worse. If you probably know hes not going to c/r with something that you beat or a draw, its even more reason to bet. I don't think this it the type of situation where you want to be checking the turn back to try to get value on the river. He might call a big bet on the turn with a draw.

[student_of_game]

Thanks for articulating that so nicely David! I think one area of my game that I have to overcome is seeing too many demons in these situations. You're right, there's no reason to believe I don't have the best hand, and this is not a situation where I need to check for pot control.

[student_of_game]

Just wanted to give results. I ended up calling in the hand. Villain felted TT and MHIG. Based on the information I provided, I don't know that a call is generally good in these situations and I may have misplayed the hand (especially by not betting the turn), however I think I got lucky since villain misplayed it even more.

I would think that a "normal" villain would either make a blocking bet or check any hand that has showdown value rather than making a pot sized bet. I haven't shown much strength post flop and there's no reason for him to think that I connected with this board. So, the pot-sized bet on the river is either a bluff or a very strong hand.