Live Turn Checkraise - Page 3

James. · #21 08-01-2007, 08:56 AM

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I would have thought open-raisng JTs from EP FR in a SS live (loose) game would be bad.

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depends on how many coldcallers you can expect and how often you get 3bet. also, if there's a couple good/observant players in the game, opening UTG with pretty good hands like 9Ts or JTs can actually get you more action on your big hands as well as conceal EP raises.

James. · #22 08-01-2007, 09:10 AM

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I will post the analysis tomorrow, but what I'm starting to tell people is that if your play is so read based and so strong, just do it without having to post/ask.

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it's not that read based. just seeing a decent spot versus someone that can fold often enough for it to show profit. not to mention there are ancillary benefits to this if it somehow gets showndown.

edit to say: i mean, it's obviously based on a read, but not a very, very specific one. i'm just taking advantage of my image, how i'm running, and how i'm percieved by this player as well as this player's postflop tendencies.

Esso · #23 08-01-2007, 09:24 AM

I like the spirit of the play, but maybe not in this specific scenario.

The button, who is tight, respects us, thinks we are very tight, and is trying to stay out of our way has 3-bet our UTG raise and raised our flop donk on an A-high board. He's not really cooperating.

It seems to me he has at least TPTK, and he isn't going to give you credit for AA or QQ based on pre-flop action. So he really only fears AQ or 88, and thats if he only has AK.

I would like this better if he had just coldcalled preflop, of if he had just called the flop bet, so you could reasonably put him on a hand like KQ or AT.

All that being said, he doesn't have to fold that often to be the right play. I'll post the EV calc in a bit.

James. · #24 08-01-2007, 09:47 AM

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It seems to me he has at least TPTK

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of course it's possible, but not necessarily his minimum holding. even in this game, flop raises can mean alot of things.

Mike Gallo · #25 08-01-2007, 09:53 AM

It seems to me he has at least TPTK, and he isn't going to give you credit for AA or QQ based on pre-flop action. So he really only fears AQ or 88, and thats if he only has AK.

You give players too much credit. Player trying to play well could easily have a hand like 1010 JJ or KK.

SNOWBALL · #26 08-01-2007, 10:06 AM

hell no. Limp preflop. Bet/call flop. Check call turn.

This hand is so damn FPS it's just gross.

you will not fold out AK here, and you're not up against KK or JJ. It's *possible* that you will fold out AJ or AT but that's gotta be a small part of his 3 betting range given your image and the cards in your hand.

Just try to make money from the extra callers in the pot. Don't knock them out and try to bluff a guy off an obviously strong hand in a big pot.

Also, your play looks fishy. He won't put you on AA since you just called preflop. He might discount QQ a bit too since you are CRing LP out of the hand and also because you didn't cap preflop.

Mike Gallo · #27 08-01-2007, 10:08 AM

Snowball,

Im surprised at you.

I thought you would have considered this a ducy play. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

SNOWBALL · #28 08-01-2007, 10:10 AM

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I don't get any of it. I think considering capping PF is bad, you want to let button keep the initiative here. I don't get the flop lead, or the 3 bet, or the turn check/raise. Do live players fold AK here?

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omg the flop lead is HAWT. We have 8 outs to the stone nuts and a backdoor draw in a multiway pot. We're gonna get callers in between us and the raiser frequently because they are too stupid to realize it's gonna be raised behind them and it's *only* one bet to them.

Esso · #29 08-01-2007, 10:57 AM

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You give players too much credit. Player trying to play well could easily have a hand like 1010 JJ or KK.

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Probably. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what it means when we say someone is "trying to play well".

To me it means someone who has read a poker book or two, doesn't have a lot of experience applying the concepts, and is playing straightforward and weak-tight. Is this wrong?

If I'm right, I just don't think that player is raising JJ/TT on an AQx flop after a preflop UTG raiser donks into him on a board where OESD and flush draws are not possible.

Aces McGee · #30 08-01-2007, 11:08 AM

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Mike, I almost agree with you. But much of the range that James is trying to represent doesn't make sense given preflop.

As a player that trys to play well, I would put James on a hand like AQ given the way he played it. He raised first in and called a reraise preflop. I bet a player like James has played AQ that way over the course of his poker career.

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Yeah -- AQ and 88 -- are a part of his range that jive logically with preflop.

But I have outs against the former and am calling the turn -- and is James really firing again if the river blanks off, particularly if it's still three ways? (Let's not forget that there's an apparent calling station still involved here, and that he took a lot of heat on the flop. There's nothing to suggest he folds.) And if he does, are players really folding a top pair, good kicker hand in a pot that big? Not very often. (I know you don't think he has to have a hand that big, but I disagree - he's checking anything less than an ace through on the turn with two opponents).

And we still haven't talked much about the big hands that are certainly a part of the button's range. He could have a set, or AQ himself. In those cases, James is often charging himself three bets to draw when he could've done it for one.

I don't think it's horrible, and I recognize and appreciate the strength James is representing. I just don't think it's the right situation.

-McGee