How to defend vulnerable hands OOP...

[string_music]

I frequently find that I am getting floated on the flop by loose semi-aggressive players, after I bring it in in early position with a good but vulnerable hand. Case in point:

Seat 1: the_burrito ($200)
Seat 3: togl ($215.05)
Seat 4: Mongolian_X ($311.50)
Seat 5: Bluf4funthe1st ($434.95)
Seat 6: evlspnky ($143)
Bluf4funthe1st posts the small blind of $1
evlspnky posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the_burrito [3s As Ad Kh]
evlspnky: ty
the_burrito raises to $7
togl folds
Mongolian_X calls $7
Bluf4funthe1st folds
evlspnky calls $5
*** FLOP *** [8d Kc 7c]
evlspnky checks
the_burrito bets $22
Mongolian_X calls $22
cash4fun sits down
evlspnky folds
*** TURN *** [8d Kc 7c] [5h]
the_burrito checks
cash4fun adds $46.70
Mongolian_X bets $66

A fold here seems kind of academic, but on the other hand, the flop texture would make a good float scenario, as there are a ton of turn cards that can be used to represent a believable hand. So, my question is, with what frequency would you check raise here (which was my plan after the turn came down)? Or is it almost always a case of simply moving on to the hext hand in this spot.

I'm pretty hesitant about applying metagame in online cash games, since you can never be sure how long people are sticking around, but I think this might be an important play against observant opponents.

Would be interested in some HH, demonstrating some ideas about defending in these situations.

[Silent A]

Are you asking about check-raising the flop or the turn?

C-Ring the turn would be suicidal. Mainly because I don't think was a good float scenario for Mongolian since BB was still left to act.

If you think people are floating you a lot, my guess is that your play is too transparent. I don't think it's an issue of how to defend your AAxx as much as being sure that you have a hand like 6789 here often enough to crush him.

[string_music]

Maybe this hand wasn't a great example, but I can't think of anything else recent without digging through my PTO. Also, it's a possibility that I'm confusing generally loose play with being floated. In this spot, the villain in the hand was 81/24 preflop and his aggression factor was 1.1/2.5 from flop to turn, so the likelyhood of being floated is higher IMO (still getting to grips with PTO).
I don't agree that check-raising here is out of the question, although it would have to be read dependent. Is it not transparent and exploitable to c-bet and check fold when a scare card drops?

[Silent A]

Part of the problem is that your opponent called your pot bet with BB still to act. If he's doing this with hands that missed this flop he's just giving away money long term because he needs to be pretty certain that BB will fold (and I don't see how he can be). The other part is that you can only raise another $105 so you're giving him about 3:1 odds to call, while you're risking about $171 to win $132 so you're depending on an awful lot of fold equity to make this work. Simply leading would make more sense to me.

Now that you've supplied some stats for the villain I can see where you're coming from a lot better. However, the basic math of the situation is really bad for you and you need a very strong read to c-r here profitably, and these numbers just don't tell you as much in PLO as they do in HE. A lot of PLO players will almost never make such a float play, no matter what their PT numbers might be. I'd want a fairly specific read on him to try this.

With respect to folding to scare cards, there's a big difference between folding when you have a good hand without pot odds (like naked kings for example) and when you could easily have 0 to 6 outs.

[darkcore]

yeah. i do not like your example. i would never defend with 4 players to the flop. i'd just fold.

but with 3 players it depends (position, board texture, reads, etc...) and hu i'll bet all the time.

simple rule of thumb: if i you do not know 100percent for sure why you bet (defend) a given hand versus given opponents in a given situation...

don't.

[string_music]

Well, that's neither here nor there. Any thinking player (and I'd like to put myself in that category) would try to rationalise every move they make and have a specific plan with regards to playing a hand. I'm not really into the bet and pray approach.
Also, it's very difficult to be 100% sure where your opponent is at in omaha, unless it's been like 4 bet preflop, and even then ...

[darkcore]

yeah, maybe 100% was a little strong, but i tried to make a point there.

on the other hand: if you are thinking about defending your naked aces in situtation like the hand above you are into the bet and pray approach.

imo.

just let go of the hand and wait till you got the nutflush redraw...

makes life a whole lot easier.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[string_music]

I agree that setting up situations where your decisions are relatively easy is the surest way to make coin. However, I was more interested in the metagame aspects. I don't know whether that's kind of a moot point, given that the hand history isn't great for this discussion.
If I had a nut draw in that hand, it would not have been posted, because a nut draw isn't a vulnerable hand in that spot IMO. A check raise there is as likely to be a value bet as a semi-bluff.

[darkcore]

[ QUOTE ]
...A check raise there is as likely to be a value bet as a semi-bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

and? all i say is all along is that your hand is not strong enough to look villian up here.
i simply don't think your hand is strong enough to bet in the first place, fwiw.

but if you think it you profit right away or you think it helps your metagame (or future game in general) to make borderline to spewy decisions, than by all means: do it.

but i wouldn't.

and still: in general, if you do not know why you wanna bet/raise: don't.

[chucky]

I am sure you do this already, but limp reraise as an occasionally play when OOP versus ppl who have a loose raising range preflop may allow you to put more pressure on the flop by allowing you to bet out for a more substantial portion of villian's stack.