Dealer forgot to burn a card

[Kevroc]

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2) For peeking at the burn cards without showing others.

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Wait, what? If you stopped at the first part, fine, but I'm not sure why the "without showing others" is what makes it KITN-able.

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Show one, show all.


(maybe not, if the dealer wasn't playing in the game.. but he was, from the OP)

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Screw that.. he should NEVER be allowed to look at the burn cards.. in the game or not.. maybe its just a pet peeve of mine but, I hate when people look at dead cards.. wether from the muck or the burn it just irks me.

[Zetack]

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2) For peeking at the burn cards without showing others.

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Wait, what? If you stopped at the first part, fine, but I'm not sure why the "without showing others" is what makes it KITN-able.

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Show one, show all.


(maybe not, if the dealer wasn't playing in the game.. but he was, from the OP)

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Screw that.. he should NEVER be allowed to look at the burn cards.. in the game or not.. maybe its just a pet peeve of mine but, I hate when people look at dead cards.. wether from the muck or the burn it just irks me.

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The muck is clearly out of line because now you are looking at cards players discarded without permission, and the show one show all rule will come into effect (assuming the looker in playing and not railbirding).

Looking at Burn Cards is not in the same category, although I agree its a bad practice that should be discouraged. Unlike looking at the muck, which will always reveal information about a players hand/play, looking at Burn Cards may occiasionally reveal something about a players hand/play, usually because it shows the player is representing a hand he does not have.

[gusmahler]

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16. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card.


Edit: NEVER MIND! I changed my mind, after looking at the hold em specific rule which is slightly different than the general rule. The board should be constructed with the correct cards.

Hold Them specific rule:

6. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard by any player, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. <font color="red"> If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.</font>



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The only significant difference between Hold Em rule 6 and General rule 16 is the phrase "on the last round" is missing from the Hold Em Rule 6.

This rule only deals with flop games (because of the use of the word "board card".) The only flop games described in the rules are Omaha and Hold 'em and the Omaha rules explicitly state that those rules are the same as the Hold 'em rules.

Therefore, there doesn't seem to be a need for general rule 16 because it is superceded by hold 'em rule 6. So why have two rules that contradict each other?

Also, you skipped rule 7

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7. If the flop needs to be redealt for any reason, the boardcards are mixed with the remainder of the deck. The burncard remains on the table. After shuffling, the dealer cuts the deck and deals a new flop without burning a card. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on this rule.]

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[ShannonRyu]

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Looking at Burn Cards is not in the same category, although I agree it’s a bad practice that should be discouraged. Unlike looking at the muck, which will always reveal information about a player’s hand/play, looking at Burn Cards may occasionally reveal something about a player’s hand/play, usually because it shows the player is representing a hand he does not have.

[/ QUOTE ]Agree. He only looked at the burns because it was a suspense-filled all-in moment and we all knew the all-in player only won with a 3. It is not a practice at this game typically. It was only mentioned because of its relevance to being able to recreate the hand because the source of the error was known (not burning before the flop).

[gusmahler]

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16. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card.


Edit: NEVER MIND! I changed my mind, after looking at the hold em specific rule which is slightly different than the general rule. The board should be constructed with the correct cards.

Hold Them specific rule:

6. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard by any player, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. <font color="red"> If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.</font>



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The only significant difference between Hold Em rule 6 and General rule 16 is the phrase "on the last round" is missing from the Hold Em Rule 6.



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I sent an email to Robert of Robert's Rules. He says that Hold Em rule 6 is correct because it is important to have the correct cards out on the board. He will correct General Rule 16 in a future version.

[Zetack]

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16. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card.


Edit: NEVER MIND! I changed my mind, after looking at the hold em specific rule which is slightly different than the general rule. The board should be constructed with the correct cards.

Hold Them specific rule:

6. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard by any player, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. <font color="red"> If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.</font>



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The only significant difference between Hold Em rule 6 and General rule 16 is the phrase "on the last round" is missing from the Hold Em Rule 6.

This rule only deals with flop games (because of the use of the word "board card".) The only flop games described in the rules are Omaha and Hold 'em and the Omaha rules explicitly state that those rules are the same as the Hold 'em rules.

Therefore, there doesn't seem to be a need for general rule 16 because it is superceded by hold 'em rule 6. So why have two rules that contradict each other?

Also, you skipped rule 7

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7. If the flop needs to be redealt for any reason, the boardcards are mixed with the remainder of the deck. The burncard remains on the table. After shuffling, the dealer cuts the deck and deals a new flop without burning a card. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on this rule.]

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Rule seven isn't relevant to the situation under discussion.

Also, rule 16 is presumably relevant for poker forms which don't have specific rules provided, say, for instance, lame brain pete.

[gusmahler]

Never mind.

[ShannonRyu]

So how should we have handled this?

[Humble Pie]

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So how should we have handled this?

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Once action has been taken on a boardcard by any player, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred.

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Based on the rules quoted above.