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#31
07-30-2007, 01:55 PM
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Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
[ QUOTE ]
phil hellmuth is the best nl holdem tournament player currently and of all-time and its not even close [/ QUOTE ] Of all-time? I think you're missing somebody:  If he didn't die young, we'd be calling him the best of the best. 
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#33
07-30-2007, 05:20 PM
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Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
For some reason people choose to rag on Stu Ungar and deny his was the best tourney player. If you read One of a Kind or have heard/read interviews with highly respected poker players who have been around a long time, namely the Godfather himself Doyle Brunson, they say Stu was by far the best tourney player when he was on his game and its not even close. That said, Doyle would have more bracelets than Phil Helmuth if he had played as many tourneys in his heyday. And when its all said and done, Allen Cunningham just might rule all.
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#34
07-30-2007, 07:15 PM
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Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
Stu Ungar for sure..
"He is the only three-time winner of the World Series of Poker Main Event tournament (Johnny Moss also won three WSOPs but his first win was by vote of the players, not by winning a tournament)." "Ungar also won the main event at the now-defunct Amarillo Slim's Super Bowl of Poker in 1983, 1988 and 1989, when it was considered the world's second most prestigious poker title." Sexton: "Ungar is a three-time World Champion (with five WSOP bracelets). He won ten major No Limit Hold'em championship events (in which the buy-ins were $5,000 or higher). The next two guys in line, T.J. Cloutier (all-time leading money winner at the WSOP) and Johnny Chan (two-time World Champion), have won half that many. <font color="red"> </font>
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#35
07-30-2007, 07:45 PM
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Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
[ QUOTE ]
Stu Ungar for sure.. "He is the only three-time winner of the World Series of Poker Main Event tournament (Johnny Moss also won three WSOPs but his first win was by vote of the players, not by winning a tournament)." [/ QUOTE ] It is foolish to be so results oriented. In one of those wins, Stu hit a three outer to a straight against Doyle. Winning bracelets has always (even in the early days) included tremendous amounts of sheer luck.
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#36
07-30-2007, 10:37 PM
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Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
[ QUOTE ]
It is foolish to be so results oriented. In one of those wins, Stu hit a three outer to a straight against Doyle. Winning bracelets has always (even in the early days) included tremendous amounts of sheer luck. [/ QUOTE ] There's surely lots of luck in MTTs. Unger was lucky ten times. How many others made it to the heads-up part of the tournament ten times?
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#37
07-31-2007, 12:05 PM
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Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
The guy won 1/3 of the tournaments he entered!!!
"In one of those wins, Stu hit a three outer to a straight against Doyle. " Ya, and what's your point? This "luck" is essential to win tournaments... When Raymer won, how many "coin flips" did he win? 50%.. NOT; he won a majority of them even though the natural odds were 50%.. That's poker! Stu won 10 TIMES!!! If a NFL team won the SuperBowl 10 times in a 30 year period.. Would you discount them as the best football team ever, "don't be results oriented", "they had that one lucky fumble" BTW, the natural odds to win the SuperBowl would be 1 in 32 chance, a lot lower odds than a single individual to win a Major Poker tourney (~1000:1 ?) Taking the field sizes into account (32:1 vs 1000:1) it would be like winning the SuperBowl 29 out of 30 years.. Even with 29 out of 30 wins, would you still argue they weren't the best football team because you can't focus on results?
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#38
07-31-2007, 12:54 PM
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Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
[ QUOTE ]
Sexton: "Ungar is a three-time World Champion (with five WSOP bracelets). He won ten major No Limit Hold'em championship events (in which the buy-ins were $5,000 or higher). The next two guys in line, T.J. Cloutier (all-time leading money winner at the WSOP) and Johnny Chan (two-time World Champion), have won half that many. <font color="red"> </font> [/ QUOTE ] Nice and up to date, that's what I like about you.
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#39
07-31-2007, 12:55 PM
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Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
Also keep in mind most of the tournaments Stu won had less than 100 people in them and less than 10 of those were even close to being good by today's standards.
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#40
07-31-2007, 01:53 PM
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Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
[ QUOTE ]
"lot lower odds than a single individual to win a Major Poker tourney (~1000:1 ?) [/ QUOTE ] That's either idiotic or deliberately misleading. Ungar never won a tournament with 1000+ runners. Which isn't his fault, because there weren't any back then. Ungar's WSOP wins were in fields of 73, 75 and 312. He also won $10K tournaments with field sizes of 20, 15, 29, 21 and 22 (these are estimates because I don't know the exact rake but they're no more than 2 or 3 off). Source The oft-stated fact that he won 10 major tournaments "out of 30" is entirely anecdotal, we don't know how many he really entered or how much selection bias was applied (if he won it, it was counted as a major, if he didn't, we don't know). By all means state your opinion that Ungar was the best. But if you're going to back it up with statistics, do so fairly.
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