25 NL Basic top pair OOP logic

[Warren Harding]

First orbit, no reads. Effective stacks: 80 bb

Two folds to me, I raise KQo to 4x bb. HJ, BN and BB call

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB leads for 2/3 pot, I ...

a) Fold-- Betting into a field this size including a PFR is strong. The board is mostly uncoordinated, so I'm likely against at least top pair with two more players to act.
b) Call-- There is insufficient evidence that I am behind. I can still likely get to showdown cheaply if I want, or easily fold to a raise behind me or fold the turn to significant strength. I can read the hand more easily on the turn. Calling is better than raising because raising will disproportionately fold out worse hands correctly, while I hate raising and planning to fold to a reraise.
c) Raise-- I have a vulnerable hand that is still better than BB's range. Fold out hands like A8, and milk 97s or KT. Easy fold to a RR. I can manage the pot better if I have control.

Each option works for various opponents, but against unknowns? In this situation I mostly favor (b) then (c) then (a). I call, planning to bet the turn if checked to, call if HU and the lead is reasonable, fold if the lead is 2/3 pot and there is another player behind me. The borderline cases are 1/2 pot lead with another player behind me and 2/3 pot lead HU, in both cases leaning slightly toward fold.

How is my thinking? Any flaws large or small?

[DiamondDog]

I'm a noob when it comes to NL so go easy on me.

FWIW, I'm thinking if BB has Aces, Kings or AK you're in trouble. But if he does I would have expected an unknown to reraise pre-flop.

If he's hit a set I might expect an unknown to check and reel me in later.

I'm tempted to raise/fold.

I repeat, I'm a noob.

[MarcusT]

That's why you fold KQo OOP preflop.

[CaptVimes]

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That's why you fold KQo OOP preflop.

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You really fold KQ from MP PF?

My thoughts,

Raising - Will hopefully get us heads up. It also gives us the oppotunity to take control. Meaning if checked to us on the turn we can choose to bet again or check behind. Any other callers, other than the turn raiser and I'm pretty much done here. If the BB reraises I'm done. A proper raise, however, is going to get you somewhat committed to this pot with marginal hand that may be behind already.

Folding - The pot is big already given the PF action. One or more of the villains could be set mining. I don't know what the donk by BB means. What's a bigger mistake in this situation, getting involved in big pot with TPGK, or folding maybe the best hand when you only have 4BB invested.

Calling - Your enlarging the pot and gaining no useful information. You are also, as I said earlier, giving HJ and BTN better odds to call (>3to1) if they are playing a draw. (Very unlikely here given dry nature of the flop.) What's your plan with this on the turn? If BB bets 2/3 again on the turn he's got a half pot bet left to go all in on the river(assuming 80 bb stacks and HJ and BTN Fold).

Some hands are, I think, better won now rather than trying to get every ounce of value out of worse hands. This seems to be one of those hands especially since we are OOP. I think I favor raising>folding>calling

[MarcusT]

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That's why you fold KQo OOP preflop.

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You really fold KQ from MP PF?

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Yes. Do you see the difference of playing this very hand from the button?

But, tbh, I play KQs OOP, but I don't get happy with TPGK.

[subzero]

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a) Fold-- Betting into a field this size including a PFR is strong.

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I'm not ready to accept this from an unknown 25NL player.

I don't like raising because it bloats the pot when all we have is TPGK. If the board was more coordinated, then I'd lean towards raising. I like calling here. I think it's likely that HJ and BN missed and will fold. Then we can play position against BB and see what happens on the turn.

[mce86]

First off, you dont want to fold out those hands you are ahead of, you want to charge them to see the next card.
Your thoughts seem fine. Im just calling here...I have two players behind me who called a raise, so they could be strong as well. Turn will have to be revaluated.