AKo multiway

[Befolder]

Grunch. This flop bet is awful in this spot.

[nomadtla]

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So if we check the flop (which I would have done in the OP's spot), what do we do if the button bets and utg and mp fold? If they call? I assume we fold once we check, right?

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if we check, button bets, and both of them fold. I would call and hope to spike a non- [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T or pair and take it to showdown cheaply. I'm not giving button credit for a flush on just one flop bet.

If they all call I think I still peel the flop and fold turn UI.

If we hit a pair or the T then I think I will try to get to showdown and fold if it's ever 2 bets to me.

For the record I check this flop against this many as well.

[Befolder]

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So if we check the flop (which I would have done in the OP's spot), what do we do if the button bets and utg and mp fold? If they call? I assume we fold once we check, right?

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I'll give us about 4.5 discounted outs (no clubs) and say we barely have enough to peel the flop.

[NIX]

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So if we check the flop (which I would have done in the OP's spot), what do we do if the button bets and utg and mp fold? If they call? I assume we fold once we check, right?

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I don't mind putting in 1SB to see the turn. If Button bets, I'll peel no matter how many others call. What I don't want to do is bet the flop with a poor draw here, get raised, and then have to see the same turn for 2SB since I'll have odds.

If I improve on the turn, I'll give a little action if I catch a ten, but will call down on an ace or a king depending on other action. If the turn is HU, I'll call a turned K. If it's fourway and button bets and gets raised, I can fold. If I don't improve on the turn and Button wants to bet again (or anyone else for that matter), I'm done and fold.

[OrigamiSensei]

Nobody has adequately explained why the flop bet is bad and it's a concept that I wind up explaining in roughly every third session review: that of relative position. There are numerous types of relative position plays but this situation is a common one that comes up in pots that are four or more handed.

We know that if we bet the flop we are highly unlikely to fold everyone else out. We also know there's a high likelihood we're putting money in while we're behind and also that we're going to hate getting raised. Meanwhile, if we check then because we have relative position nothing bad can happen to us. If button checks we get a free card and we're happy. If button bets and somebody check-raises we can get off the hand quite easily. If button bets and it's one coming back to us we have pot odds to peel for our non-club overcard and straight outs.

To generalize the concept: if there is exactly one player left to act behind you and you want to guarantee you'll get out of the betting round at a cost of zero bets (whether by folding or by virtue of it checking through) or one bet then relative position says you should check.

[nomadtla]

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Nobody has adequately explained why the flop bet is bad

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That's because we were waiting for you to explain it. Quite wonderfully I might add, nice post. I just knew it was bad never thought it through like that.

[CrMenace]

OS, I actually think it has virtually nothing to do with position and virtually everything to do with it being unlikely that we are ahead (and furthermore unlikely to draw to a winner).

[marchron]

Fantam, in many situations, I'd agree with you, but not here.

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I dont mind taking one stab at the flop after 2 players check to me.

The flop is very co-ordinated. But the pot is quite big, you have some outs to improve to a non [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Ace or straight if called, and your bet just might buy the button

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Unless Button is a complete putz, he's not folding right here getting more than 10-1 after having a hand "good" enough to coldcall preflop. And if he has a hand that won't call a bet here, like red 66 or something, well . . .

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and gain you a free card on the turn.

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The problem is with a board this nasty, the times we're going to have to pay 2 SB to see the turn way offset those times we get to see the turn for 1 SB and the river for free.

Buying the button is unimportant here because if he has anything he's going to fold, then there's no way in hell he's betting, and we get to see a free turn. I'd rather get the turn for free than pay for the turn to get a free river, because a lot of turn cards will make us regret paying to see them and leave the river a moot point.