98s small blind steal.

[AceofSpades]

jamming is better here I think. It's a turbo, and I think 675 in the bag is better than unlikely hitting a flop hard enough here.

If you're not limping w/ this hand here (if not in the blinds) then pushing has got to be more ev. are you limping here?

[ParadiceCity]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather do this with T5o than 89s here. I would call to try and see a flop. I think a hand like 89s is more valuable in a multiway pot with the potential to flop a lot of draws. I would rather make this move with a garbage hand that would only have value making this move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um he is shoving all in here not just squeezing, what difference would it make whether its 89 or 105o, if you squeeze about 6-8xbb, then 105o is good because its an easy hand to play if you get repopped or called, but i dont see the value in pushing with 105o as opposed to 89s all in

[D. Bosola]

[/ QUOTE ]

1. It's a turbo.
2. This is hardly FPS.
3. I will never get called by half the [censored] you think I will get called with. In fact, 88 and KQ are the ONLY two hands feasable here.
4. 675 chips is over 20% of my stack. My stack is not "huge" this is a turbo.
5. You see that "god knows what else" that's calling me? It's +EV if it does. Specifically any situation that I'm not dominated and not against overpairs against is +EV because of the huge amounts of dead money I'm creating. In fact, two of the stacks that might call me are so short that it's by far HUGELY +EV if they do with the range of hands they would have. The two others have hands they're flat calling rather than raising with with others in the pot, that narrows their range to hands that don't destroy me.

Don't come here with 0 understanding of the hand and call me a lagtard. The argument is NOT whether or not the jam is +EV. The argument is whether or not calling is a higher +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Original post does not state that this is a turbo.

2. This isn't FPS? Keep telling yourself that. You will continue to spew chips in marginal-EV situations until the cows come home. I'm trying to help you here.

3. You will run into AA,KK,QQ etc. far more often than you realize, especially in a turbo, because people will limp with the knowledge that desperate and impatient people such as yourself are likely to shove with ATC.

4. Yes, 675 chips is more than 20% of your stack but you are not in such dire straits M-wise that you need those chips NOW. Against one limper, this might not be such a bad play. Against multiple limpers, you are begging to get called.

5. That "god knows what else" that I refer to includes such hands as 22-99, JTs, QJ+, KJ+, Ax, and all other crap that people will call you with to keep you honest. Are you aware that you're a dog to all of these hands? Do you even care?

BTW, in a turbo, they're even more likely to call you because they realize they may not get many more decent hands before the blinds swallow them up. So you actually have far less fold equity than you think in this situation.

In conclusion, I stand by my original assessment. I suppose you posted this expecting everyone to congratulate you on your brilliant steal-shove. But no, you are just a lagtard.

[MJBuddy]

[ QUOTE ]

2. This isn't FPS? Keep telling yourself that. You will continue to spew chips in marginal-EV situations until the cows come home. I'm trying to help you here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Marginal is still +EV...

[ QUOTE ]

3. You will run into AA,KK,QQ etc. far more often than you realize, especially in a turbo, because people will limp with the knowledge that desperate and impatient people such as yourself are likely to shove with ATC.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I won't. Unless you mean like once. And reading OP, I've stated I've played three hands similarly and showed monsters each time.

[ QUOTE ]

4. Yes, 675 chips is more than 20% of your stack but you are not in such dire straits M-wise that you need those chips NOW. Against one limper, this might not be such a bad play. Against multiple limpers, you are begging to get called.


[/ QUOTE ]

By the time this hand would finish, blinds would jump another level. Probably two levels in the next two hands. The reason I can show over 100% ROI in turbos thus far is the ability to realize there are never chips not worth taking.

[ QUOTE ]

5. That "god knows what else" that I refer to includes such hands as 22-99, JTs, QJ+, KJ+, Ax, and all other crap that people will call you with to keep you honest. Are you aware that you're a dog to all of these hands? Do you even care?


[/ QUOTE ]

Let them call me. With the dead money it's NOT -EV.

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, in a turbo, they're even more likely to call you because they realize they may not get many more decent hands before the blinds swallow them up. So you actually have far less fold equity than you think in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then..let them call me. I have the same FE as I did before. If they're smart enough to know that the turbo will swallow them up, they're smart enough to know they have people behind them to act. Take this with the fact that the button must also have the loosest range of the entire table because he's calling with so much money in the pot and with position, meaning he's limping so openly that I'm probably +EV against his entire range.


[ QUOTE ]

In conclusion, I stand by my original assessment. I suppose you posted this expecting everyone to congratulate you on your brilliant steal-shove. But no, you are just a lagtard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to MTTs. Particularly, welcome to threads I start, where I average 3 pages of actual discussion rather than one page of idiots telling people fold pre-flop or jam pre-flop.

[illini43]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would rather do this with T5o than 89s here. I would call to try and see a flop. I think a hand like 89s is more valuable in a multiway pot with the potential to flop a lot of draws. I would rather make this move with a garbage hand that would only have value making this move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um he is shoving all in here not just squeezing, what difference would it make whether its 89 or 105o, if you squeeze about 6-8xbb, then 105o is good because its an easy hand to play if you get repopped or called, but i dont see the value in pushing with 105o as opposed to 89s all in

[/ QUOTE ]

This question has nothing to do with the hand Hero has, its about putting villians on ranges and the likelihood they would fold because they just limped instead of raising. Making this move is basically independent of the hand we hold.

[markbris]

I would like this alot more like illini said if you had like 2000, I think you are just too deep to push here. I love doing this move but with a smaller stack than what you have here.

[bogey1]

[ QUOTE ]
Making this move is basically independent of the hand we hold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not quite. 89s is better than T5o. Part of the EV is what happens if we're called. Against the hand ranges that would limp then call, T5o is a big underdog to a bunch of them. 89s is a small underdog AND contains 2 of the cards for 88 or 99 and thus limits the liklihood those two hands are out there.

I agree with you that it's more about the situation, but the cards are certainly still relevant.

[coatsie]

I would rather make this move with a garbage hand that would only have value making this move. You choose your worst hands because seeing a flop with these hands has less value than seeing one with a decent holding like 89s.

Also your M is 13.6 so i think the risk reward is not worth it here, i would prefer it with an M of 7-9

You have a good opportunity to see a cheap multiway flop with a great cheap multiway hand. Take it.

Also theres an UTG limper which increases chance of AA, KK

[bogey1]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather make this move with a garbage hand that would only have value making this move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most every hand has value making this move because a lot of the value is fold equity. Not every hand gets the most value from this move. T5o is so bad that the -EV when called is significant, maybe enough that it's not a hand that gains value from a shove. The -EV when called when holding 89s isn't as bad meaning the +EV from fold equity is higher than the -EV from the occasional call.

Shoving AA has +EV when called, but you're losing EV relative to a smaller sucker bet that keeps 1 person with you. As mentioned before, I think the argument isn't +/-EV with the 89s push, but whether the push is greater or lesser EV than playing the flop on this hand.

At 3000 chips, I'd rather play the flop and work the EV from implied odds. As mentioned by someone else, with 2000 chips your implied odds are smaller so a push makes more sense.

[black666]

In general I like the move. Limping is so weak, it's -EV not to take advantage of it from time to time.

The only thing I don't like is the timing, because UTG also limped with a 9xBB stack. He is likely to call you because he needs to double up and people limp all kind of monsters UTG - that's why I always make notes of what people limp/min-raise UTG.