Playing Against The Maniacs (Old Hand Dissertation)

[JavaNut]

Very nice post.

It does not cover one situation I have been in a while back.

There was a 'good' maniac and a couple of normally just leaking, but otherwise not notably wierd players who went zombie-maniacs. Apparently the 'good' maniac had taken control over them, perhaps applying an imperius curse or something.

The 'good' maniac was raising everything preflop, every single hand, the zombies reriased him, so every hand was capped preflop, always at least 3-way, often 5-way or 6-way.
So much for isoraising.

At the flop, the 'good' maniac tried to get it capped and then at turn and river betting, raising or calling down, never folding. Often winning because the other players folded or with bottom pair and the occansional hand he'd hit.

How do you play now?

I figure the best way is to fold everyting except QQ+, AQ+.
And of course calling down everytime with this, unless exceptional cases where you know that you are beat no matter what.

The supersized pots you do win when you finally play makes up for the loads of blinds you fold.

Any thoughts?

[nerdking]

Fantastic post, Remy. I found a bunch of these guys at 1/2 FR on Stars and won lots of monies from them. I agree that there are different flavors of maniac, some are LAGTAGS who are smart maniacs and some are LAGTARDS who are the stupid ones. LAGTAGS you get fancy with, LAGTARDS you fire away on.

This post is also valuable for 6max play as there are many many more LAGs in those waters and you need to be ready for them.

Remember, Knowing is Half the Battle! GIJOE!!!

[RemyXO]

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I agree that I seem to be seeing a few more LAG and semiLAG players. I agree they are very hard to read. But I'm not sure I can agree that a general loosening up to exploit them is the way forward. I remain convinced that, over time, in a FR limit format cash game with a standard blind structure, LAGS and Semi LAGS cannot exploit sound, tight aggressive play ...

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Bona, my post is not about LAGs or SLAGs. My post is about MANIACS. Guys with 75/49/3.0. Guys with voices in their heads. Or really really drunk ones. Smart SLAGs with 25/14/3.5 FR stats are a different beast and I wasn't trying to address playing against them here.

[RemyXO]

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I will go as far as to day this is a "great" post and not just good. Well thought out and presented.

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I love you too, princess [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I would like to add one thing that I didn't see mentioned, though I started skimming towards the end due to length.

Something I've noticed about playing these guys HU, there is really no value in semi-bluffing since we are very very likely to be reraised and part of the value of semi-bluffing is the fold equity we have. Most of these guys would rather have a nice plate of cow tripe than fold.

So, if you have a draw, play it more passively until you get something worth putting extra money in the pot with.

Of course if it's some sort of monster straight flush draw w/ overcards, then go nuts because you're probably the favorite.
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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Very good points, something I forgot to mention.
I talked about slowplaying only, but it should be generalized to say that DECEPTIVE PLAYS IN GENERAL (bluffing, semi-bluffing, slowplaying, etc) will be completely lost on the maniacs. Don't even bother. Stick to the straight value plays and take it to the bank.

[RemyXO]

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(5) Don’t let your ego get in the way of rational poker thinking. Acknowledge that the maniac is now the table captain, and he will be running all over everyone at the table. He will take down a lot of pots when everyone folds preflop and when everyone misses the flop. Don’t try to play the same maniacal aggressive game that he is – he’s definitely better at it than you are! Let others try to put the maniac “in his place” – he will become and intermediary pipe, tunneling their money to you! Make him play YOUR game, don’t try to play HIS.

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This is what helped me the most when playing LAGTards. I kept seeing them steal blinds and win a ton of small pots and got pissed, which made me play badly. Once I started thinking of them as simply collecting everybody else's money into a new pot (their bankroll) and that it makes it much, much easier for me to get at, than I looked forward to money moving into their stack. I want this guy to be the 2nd biggest winner at the table after me. Those chips are one step closer if they are in his stack.

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I know what you mean, brother. Been there, done that! Get you mind straight and be glad, no - THRILLED, that that maniac is taking down this pots and keeps growing his stack. Just more money for you to be made off of him! Be patient, pick your spots and take it down.

[RemyXO]

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Also, nh Remy. Much better than your "almost-dissertation," since that one was mostly bitching and here you've identified a solution.

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I guess that one came through as bitching, but it was not intended to be. I was looking for answers to the questions expressed in a whiny parlance [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Again, this post is not a solution to playing decent SLAGs, it's a post about playing MANIACS. I have not identified a good well-rounded strategy to beating SLAGs consistently yet.

Though I made several adjustments to FTP games which are not really SSHE-like ... since then I've reversed my 100BB downswing and I'm well in the green territory for the past few thousand hands. Those adjustments might actually merit a separate post, now that you reminded me ...

[RemyXO]

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Very nice post.

It does not cover one situation I have been in a while back.

There was a 'good' maniac and a couple of normally just leaking, but otherwise not notably wierd players who went zombie-maniacs. Apparently the 'good' maniac had taken control over them, perhaps applying an imperius curse or something.

The 'good' maniac was raising everything preflop, every single hand, the zombies reriased him, so every hand was capped preflop, always at least 3-way, often 5-way or 6-way.
So much for isoraising.

At the flop, the 'good' maniac tried to get it capped and then at turn and river betting, raising or calling down, never folding. Often winning because the other players folded or with bottom pair and the occansional hand he'd hit.

How do you play now?

I figure the best way is to fold everyting except QQ+, AQ+.
And of course calling down everytime with this, unless exceptional cases where you know that you are beat no matter what.

The supersized pots you do win when you finally play makes up for the loads of blinds you fold.

Any thoughts?

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Well, this is a situation I touched on that's gone to extreme. Previously decent and rational players losing their wits and trying to out-LAG the LAG. Obviously, they didn't read my post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Didn't SSHE have a chapter on playing in super-aggressive games? Or was it some other Sklansky book? Anyways, once the table goes to hell in the ways you described, the only strategy you really have is to exactly fold everything except super premium hands. QQ+, AQ+, as you said. I'd throw JJ and AJs in the mix. That's about it ... sit patiently and fold, fold, fold till you get a monster in the hole. (did that sound right?)

However, if a game becomes a complete crapshoot (3-4 to every capped flop and raising/reraising all the way to showdown multiway), I'd be looking for another table.

[Guitierez]

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Sometimes you will find yourself in a multiway pot. Sitting to the left of the LAG is very key here, since you can knock people out with raises on the flop. However, if the other opponent indicates that he’s got a hand, you will need a very strong holding to continue, since you are in essence squeezed in the middle of raising warfare! Time to let go of your middle pair or A-high!


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I would like to add a quote from Eric Lindauer's Playing against a maniac: Strategy adjustments post in MSL Forum.

He provides 8 keys to beat maniacs and has two good examples (ATo flopping TPTK and pushing a player off a better hand).

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Key #3. Risk bets to win the pot. Many players are aware of the idea of risking an extra bet or two to win a big pot. It's the foundation of hold 'em strategy in big multiway pots. In fact, most players vastly overestimate the value they pick up for an extra bet vs the cost in a typical pot ...Yet these same players go limp and passively call down when faced with a true maniac. His total aggression intimidates them... "sure, he's a maniac, but he just capped the flop and bet the turn against 3 opponents!"... you must get over this fear to really make big bucks against the maniac.

If the maniac has capped the flop against 3 opponents, then the pot is huge. If you have a hand worth showing down against the maniac, you must seriously consider raising his turn bet. Note that you are using his aggression to really put pressure on your opponents... it's very difficult for them to call down with 1-pair at this point. Using the maniac's aggression to knock out the best hand is a key strategy in these games.


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