NL25 Top Pair vs Unknown Villain

Smoka · #1 07-26-2007, 11:02 AM

Ok.. my first post here... reading this great forums since a couple of months and now I'm finally ending my "posting virginity" :-D though I'm now playing at NL25 and I guess I need some advice for that limit even if its really fishy sometimes as far as I can see atm.

So.. I'm coming to the point now.. just started the session 2 or 3 hands before... I have no reads yet and want to keep the pot small even if his min-raise and his pretty weak turn-raise didnt show strength here (or maybe the nuts ??). The questions are:
Should I raise the flop? (as I said, I just called his minraise here because of pot control)
Can I call the river?
I put him on a weak king on the flop and with this relative big bet (after the first small ones) I gave him some credit for KT or also maybe QJ with an aggresive played gutshot.

As I said, need advice here, really dont know if I can call this. Hints for a better pre-flop, flop and turn play are also welcome :-)

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $8.40
BB: $20.55
UTG: $28.00
MP: $24.90
Hero (CO): $27.65
BTN: $6.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.00, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75, MP calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $2.00, BB folds, MP raises to $4.00, Hero calls $2.00

Turn: ($11.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP bets $4.00, Hero calls $4.00

River: ($19.10) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP bets $12.00, Hero ???

Pot Size: $31.10 ($0.90 Rake)

Gorgias · #2 07-26-2007, 11:16 AM

I'm sure you've heard it before but the 2p2 preflop consensus is 4x+1bb per limper, so you'd want to raise to $1.25 preflop.

If we assume he calls oop preflop with 22+, AJ+, KQ+, 54s-JTs... 14% of hands... he raises you on the flop so he probably has something. Say 77+ or hearts. If you made a big reraise he'd call with a heart draw (Which you're ahead of), 77, 99, KK, AA, or TT-QQ. You're behind 77,99,KK,AA and ahead of the rest...so I think a big reraise makes sense, deny him the odds he needs to draw and get value out of weaker hands.

On the river, nothing except TT really got there, and it seems like he might do this with a lot of his range (having shown strength strength strength a check here is begging for a bluff), so I call--especially because the turn bet was so weak.

But I'm just learning myself, so listen to more experienced 2p2ers if they post. good luck!

Smoka · #3 07-26-2007, 11:47 AM

Thx for your fast reply and the thoughts. Okay, 4bb + 1 per limper is 2+2 standard and I should apply that but I played 80k hands before with 3bb + 1 per limper :-) (just to explain my raise) but I guess I should apply the play with 1 bb more.

I'm also behind against QJ. Don't know yet if a gutshot draw gets played the same way like on NL10 (there it happened often that someone overplayed it ... so it looked for me like that or a weaker King, maybe also a FD... the more I think abotu it the more I guess I should have called.

What are others thinking about a flop raise to see where I am at instead of trying to keep the pot small??

BevillTheDevil · #4 07-26-2007, 12:19 PM

since villian minraises us on the flop i dont mind callin and re-eval turn. Pushin flop probably is only gettin called by hands that beat us and foldin is kinda weak. Turn id probably fold to a decent size bet but 1/3 probably not. River tho, i think we have to fold now. What do we beat that plays this way?? Maybe KJ?? thats about it. He could have a busted flush draw but even a couple draws got there.

After readin that your probably like, "so wtf why didnt we just fold on the flop if we are gona call down and fold on the river". Well at the table given the weaksauce raise on flop and bet on turn by villian i think its tough to fold but him bettin all 3 streets and the river bet isnt that weak I dont think TPGK is good here. But its close and obv i could be wrong

WarhammerIIC · #5 07-26-2007, 12:26 PM

This is tough without reads, but his plays look like, "I don't really like my hand, so it'd be sweet if you just folded for me". The problem is that you don't beat a whole lot. But you're getting 3 to 1, so you only need to be right 25% of the time. The early position limp-call usually screams small or medium PP or a SC. I'm probably folding most of the time, but it wouldn't shock me if he had something like 88.

Smoka · #6 07-26-2007, 12:32 PM

ok, thanks for the replies guys... it's good to hear, that I didnt make everything wrong on my new limit ;-) I had a strange feeling with that hand and as you said I dont beat much here.

Btw he showed his hand.. if anyone is interested I can give him/her the result via pm...

BevillTheDevil · #7 07-26-2007, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ok, thanks for the replies guys... it's good to hear, that I didnt make everything wrong on my new limit ;-) I had a strange feeling with that hand and as you said I dont beat much here.

Btw he showed his hand.. if anyone is interested I can give him/her the result via pm...

[/ QUOTE ]

ya send it to me im interested

EDIT: results oriented side of me wants to know [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Lego05 · #8 07-26-2007, 12:39 PM

Gorgias you are overestimating people in some respects and underestimating them in others IMO. The average player here is calling pre-flop much wider than you think....they will call with all sorts of garbage.

On the flop most people won't call a big 3bet with TT, or JJ and usually not QQ. IMO they probably wouldn't have minraised these hands although that is more likely than them calling another raise. If you make a big reraise and get called you are either crushed or he has a draw (IMO more likely crushed though a draw would still be a decent part of his range: obv. depends on exactly how big your raise was and how bad at poker the villian is.)

Ok moving on I do like a pre-flop raise to 1.25.

I'd probably just call that flop raise and hope a heart doesn't hit.

Ok the turn is where it starts to get a little tricky I think. That 4 bucks kinda looks like a block to me. Him being an unknown makes it hard for me to decide on calling or raising here. Calling here is fine I think. I might raise though and fold if he 3bets me or fold if he calls and puts out a good sized river bet.

Ok let's move on to the river as played: Hmmm if the bet were a litttle bigger I'd almost definitely fold and if it were a little smaller I'd definitely call. The downside to that river is that if he is kinda an idiot a couple of gutshots just got there. Also KT just got there and now that pretty much leaves KJ as the only hand you are beating. You are also beating busted hearts though, which I think makes up a part of his range. As played and as is with that bet size I'm not sure it really matters if you call or fold here. It seems really close to me. I'd almost definitely call were that river like a 2 instead of a T. I think I would call here though. Then take a note on him when he you see his cards.

Lego05 · #9 07-26-2007, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ok, thanks for the replies guys... it's good to hear, that I didnt make everything wrong on my new limit ;-) I had a strange feeling with that hand and as you said I dont beat much here.

Btw he showed his hand.. if anyone is interested I can give him/her the result via pm...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see how my analysis was....send it to me please.

BevillTheDevil · #10 07-26-2007, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably just call that flop raise and hope a heart doesn't hit.

Ok the turn is where it starts to get a little tricky I think. That 4 bucks kinda looks like a block to me. Him being an unknown makes it hard for me to decide on calling or raising here. Calling here is fine I think. I might raise though and fold if he 3bets me or fold if he calls and puts out a good sized river bet.

Ok let's move on to the river as played: Hmmm if the bet were a litttle bigger I'd almost definitely fold and if it were a little smaller I'd definitely call. The downside to that river is that if he is kinda an idiot a couple of gutshots just got there. Also KT just got there and now that pretty much leaves KJ as the only hand you are beating. You are also beating busted hearts though, which I think makes up a part of his range. As played and as is with that bet size I'm not sure it really matters if you call or fold here. It seems really close to me. I'd almost definitely call were that river like a 2 instead of a T. I think I would call here though. Then take a note on him when he you see his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

my thoughts too pretty much exactly...just wanted to say ya i agree it is close to a raise too on the turn. We do want to exercise pot control but that weak ass bet is sooo tempting to raise plus given the drawyness of the board. Pretty close. but w/o a read just callin is probably the safer/better option tho.