Some musings about the state of poker, and ...... - Page 2

JJH3984 · #11 07-25-2007, 01:50 AM

Bob,

Good post.

Carry on.

Joe Tall · #12 07-25-2007, 03:14 AM

There has been a lot of posts like this lately, frankly, I feel Hold'em is Dying. Ever so slowly off this great surge by the changes have started.

I asked the forum about a year ago to start playing poker: Play some F'n Poker People!

Finally, I think some of them are!

Bob T. · #13 07-25-2007, 04:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
- Are you defending with the right range against different players?
- Are you stealing with the right range against different players?
- Are you c-betting enough?
- Are you (semi)-bluffing enough?
- Are you isolating with the right range
- Are you calling enough turn C/R, but not to much?
- Are you calling enough rivers?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm dissapointed.

I'm dissapointed that I didn't include a list like this in my original post.

We could argue whether this is playing the player, or fixing your own game. But either way, these are all considerations that we should be thinking about. Thanks for responding.

HoneyBadger · #14 07-25-2007, 05:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]

- Are you c-betting enough?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd rather reverse this and say, "Are you not c-betting too much?" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

There is nothing more frustrating than being in a multi-way pot with someone who doesn't know how to play. When the board is Jh9s7s, 4 players check, and the button pfr bets his AcKd. Many people do not know how or when to cooperate in hold'em. Same thing goes for a board of 3TJQK, when someone bets, and right behind him an ace raises. Please, make us both some potential money and just call... Also, please allow us a chance to outdraw someone who made the mistakes of going for a c/r, don't continuously bet his hand for him and fix his mistake. It's all because everybody thinks "aggression is good by default"; people just don't know when not to bet anymore.

Bob T. · #15 07-25-2007, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's all because everybody thinks "aggression is good by default"; people just don't know when not to bet anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when you are up against good aggressive opponents, your aggression allows them to get a read on you. A lot of time, you can play a little more passively than normally, and maybe get an extra bet out of it.

Say you are out of position, headsup against an aggressive player. You flop enough, so that you are in the WA/WB condition, and you check/call the flop and turn. Against a lot of players, you would bet out on the river, but against an aggressive player, it might be better to mix in some checks, because he will recognize your river bet for what it is, and play accordingly, and you might not get paid if you were ahead. But checking the river gives him the read that you don't have enough to be WA/WB, so he puts you on a draw, and will likely bet a missed draw again on the river. So you could get an extra bet by playing passively all the way.

Another situation where you might get an extra bet, is when you are in position with some values, and your opponent is loose, a little aggressive, and likes to peel the flop. Instead of Continuation betting on the turn, you check behind on the turn, and induce the bluff on the river, frequently from a hand that wouldn't have even called on the turn. If you do that, make sure it is in small pots, because you don't want to give him a free shot at a six outer to win a large pot.

If the pot is multiway, and it is threebets back to me, I have a fairly wide capping range, because I am sure that someone is usually providing dead money to make the cap +EV. However, if it is going to be headsup, I frequently don't put the fourth bet in. Instead, I raise the flop, representing a newly made top pair, hoping to get threebet, so I can also raise the turn. A lot of times, if you cap it preflop, your opponent will recognize your overpair hand, and just call it down. But be making a slight slowplay preflop, you might be able to profit an extra 1.5 BBs.

Xhad · #16 07-25-2007, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against a lot of players, you would bet out on the river, but against an aggressive player, it might be better to mix in some checks, because he will recognize your river bet for what it is, and play accordingly, and you might not get paid if you were ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even worse, villain might see a bluffraise opportunity. I've done it.

HoneyBadger · #17 07-25-2007, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Even worse, villain might see a bluffraise opportunity. I've done it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.16 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB folds.

Final Pot: 8.16 BB

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

HoneyBadger · #18 07-25-2007, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

But checking the river gives him the read that you don't have enough to be WA/WB, so he puts you on a draw, and will likely bet a missed draw again on the river. So you could get an extra bet by playing passively all the way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, very true. I actually dislike the whole bet/fold line because of this. For many opponents nowadays, the hands he would've called with he will also bet when checked to. No to mention the bluff raises....

[ QUOTE ]

Another situation where you might get an extra bet, is when you are in position with some values, and your opponent is loose, a little aggressive, and likes to peel the flop. Instead of Continuation betting on the turn, you check behind on the turn, and induce the bluff on the river, frequently from a hand that wouldn't have even called on the turn. If you do that, make sure it is in small pots, because you don't want to give him a free shot at a six outer to win a large pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I use this play often as well. Also in situation where I'm afraid to be check-raised when behind, likely bet into with anything when ahead, and often folded to when you are ahead and bet.
[ QUOTE ]

If the pot is multiway, and it is threebets back to me, I have a fairly wide capping range, because I am sure that someone is usually providing dead money to make the cap +EV. However, if it is going to be headsup, I frequently don't put the fourth bet in. Instead, I raise the flop, representing a newly made top pair, hoping to get threebet, so I can also raise the turn. A lot of times, if you cap it preflop, your opponent will recognize your overpair hand, and just call it down. But be making a slight slowplay preflop, you might be able to profit an extra 1.5 BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is somewhat risky though, as you are giving up an immediate extra SB. I remember some post from someone here who said nobody plays well enough post-flop to make up for that extra SB preflop with aces.

Another one I sometimes use is to check the flop behind on a dry board with a strong hand. This is less useful against stronger players, who will instantly recognize a made hand in this, but it often works well against the poorer aggressive players. They will bet the turn with anything, and often even call your turn raise. Sometimes you're even check-raised so you can 3-bet the turn. Alternatively if you are certain it's a bluff, you can call again, and raise the river. Thing is you always have to be careful about free cards, but with small HU pots the free card is not as bad.

Joe Tall · #19 07-25-2007, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even worse, villain might see a bluffraise opportunity. I've done it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.16 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB folds.

Final Pot: 8.16 BB

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't bluff when you have the best hand!

James. · #20 07-25-2007, 08:50 PM

bob,

nice post. poker is a game of situations and maximizing expectation based upon those situations. as the situations change, so should our approach to strategizing for them.