FPS with shortstack?

Crispy Bacon · #1 07-25-2007, 04:34 PM

MP2(9k) raises to 900 (150/300 blinds), MP3 calls, folds to hero in BB with 1.4k

So MP2 raises and I'm getting ready to shove it in when MP3 calls. Obviously now when I push, both will call and they'll check it down without a solid hand which gives MP3 the chance of hitting a hand on turn or river. I think an alternative is to just call, check flop and MP2 may now see value in a C bet. MP3 folds if he misses the flop and Of course I call on any flop. Viable or fps?

TFGoose · #2 07-25-2007, 04:45 PM

What are you shoving here? I don't see your hand anywhere. Regardless though, there's nothing fancy about pushing 1400 chips in the pot when one or even two players have already put in 900. Whoever has already put in 900 will auto call another 500 with any two. Seriously, a joker and a rules card calls this bet. So whatever your hand is, it better be good. If it can't stand going to the river against two opponents, fold. You aren't getting anyone to lay anything down here, not even with a stop 'n go.

--TFGoose

Conte · #3 07-25-2007, 04:52 PM

I think you missed the point.

illini43 · #4 07-25-2007, 04:52 PM

Well, you are assured of getting more chips in the pot if you simply re-raise all-in preflop. This way, you avoid the possibility of checking and getting it checked behind on the flop or you bet and your opponents fold, thus winning less chips than you could have if you had pushed preflop.

You shouldn't have a 4BB stack for any reason other than you just lost a big pot, and I would be inclinded to build the biggest pot possible when I'm putting it in with such a short stack. The way to acheive the largest pot in this example is to raise AI preflop and making it impossible odds wise for your opponents to fold. If you bust, you bust, but if you end up winning the pot, why not pick up an extra 1000 chips when you can?

steve1127 · #5 07-25-2007, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you are assured of getting more chips in the pot if you simply re-raise all-in preflop. This way, you avoid the possibility of checking and getting it checked behind on the flop or you bet and your opponents fold, thus winning less chips than you could have if you had pushed preflop.

You shouldn't have a 4BB stack for any reason other than you just lost a big pot, and I would be inclinded to build the biggest pot possible when I'm putting it in with such a short stack. The way to acheive the largest pot in this example is to raise AI preflop and making it impossible odds wise for your opponents to fold. If you bust, you bust, but if you end up winning the pot, why not pick up an extra 1000 chips when you can?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the strategy that he's considering may have him only trying to beat one hand instead of two, so although the pot won't be as big, his equity will be much higher. I kind of like the idea. The only downside is that you may not get paid off on your last 500 or whatever it is if you flop huge. I think it's worth the risk.

TFGoose · #6 07-25-2007, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you missed the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly. The context of the OP was vague in that I wasn't sure that he had a hand with which he wanted one (or even two) opponents to go to the river. Basically, I couldn't discern what his goal was from the post, so I guess I just need further clarification there.

The main point is, if you were planning to push into the first raiser because your hand is great and you want action, then the presence of the second guy shouldn't impact your decision. Yes, the chances you'll be outdrawn increase with another player in the pot, but that can't be helped. I don't think you saving your 500 chips behind is going to impact either opponent's flop play in the slightest. If one of them believes their hand is best, they'll bet. If not, they'll check because there's no sense betting with nothing when they know you're probably going to call off your last 500 chips anyway. And if you push your 500 out there on the flop, they should both snap call you with any reasonable holding. So just get it in there now and see and what happens.

Again, this is assuming you have a hand. From the wording, I thought OP might have been contemplating taking this pot away preflop, which is absurd for the reasons I originally mentioned.

--TFGoose

Crispy Bacon · #7 07-26-2007, 02:37 AM

Oh man I really am slipping and forgot to add the hand. It was AK. I agree with Illini and Goose. There may be the very occasional time when MP2 bets with a hand I beat and MP3 folds when he would have hit a runner, runner, but it's probably less EV than just shoving it in now.

Ok now here's my confession showing the dangers of fps. The reason the hand is formatted as it is, is because it didn't exactly happen like I laid out. In fact I was on the button and just called , and the BB called behind me..D'oh
The BB pushed the flop, others folded and I called, he showed KT on a T high flop and im gone. If I'd just pushed pre-flop he's most likely have folded.
Anyway I just wanted to lay out this situation in a way that could make it most favourable to just call, but I agree that even then pushing is best. No more FPS for me!