Limp/folding dominated hands from MP

[mvdgaag]

Hmmm... good point [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Here goes:

Raising might buy you the pot with a cbet and will make it easyer to put your opponents on a range (although you can't like that range in this scenario). Also you might pick up teh blinds preflop.

There are more players with less predictable holdings when you limp. So you need to realise people can flop two pair with any two instead of the 'logical' range. This is a very rare occurance though. Also if they are up to you they might limp bigger aces behind, but he'd let too many others in himself and are likely not willing to do this.

I can't come up with much more ATM...

What is your standpoint on this, threads13?

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm... good point [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Here goes:

Raising might buy you the pot with a cbet and will make it easyer to put your opponents on a range (although you can't like that range in this scenario). Also you might pick up teh blinds preflop.

There are more players with less predictable holdings when you limp. So you need to realise people can flop two pair with any two instead of the 'logical' range. This is a very rare occurance though. Also if they are up to you they might limp bigger aces behind, but he'd let too many others in himself and are likely not willing to do this.

I can't come up with much more ATM...

What is your standpoint on this, threads13?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it follows that your c-bet on the flop might make better hands fold. Also, worse hands could raise you if you limp with an aggressive player behind you.

It is a big "it depends" spot. AJo and KQo are usally limps in early MP but I will raise them if the players to my right are the type to raise limpers but are also tight enough to just get out of the way. I usually raise AJs and KQs though since they are just that touch stronger. KJo and ATo are usually folds until I get to MP3. I will start raising these hands at that point. Any time that I have one ofthese hands I look at all the players to my left and the blinds and think about their strengths and weaknesses. I try to think if I can find a profitable situation with these hands. If I have a bunch of loose players behind me then raising isn't going to be that great and vice versa. There is so many variables to consider that it is hard to give much of a cookbook sort of answer other than this. You can see why I don't like the one line answer to questions involving hands like these... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[BigPoppa]

When I said that hands like ATo/KJo play like crap in multiways pots, I meant exactly that. Not just multiways raised pots, but multiway pots at all. If a bunch of people limp the kinds of hands they usually like to limp (SC, Axs, low PP), these unsuited big card hands actually have less than their share of pot equity.

You limp ATo and a few people limpe behind you. Flop comes A86 with 2 hearts. Exactly how much money are you making with this hand if ahead (especially OOP) and how much are you losing if behind? You're likely only getting action from hands that have you beat or have a ton of outs.

[mvdgaag]

Yeah, I see...

Lets say these are some of the most important factors in the choice between limping and raising if you are going to play AT/KJ and the like from MP3

- Will the opponents to your left steal the blinds very often? If they will you'll have to fold a lot if you limp, but take their steal away if you raise

- Is the button very protective of his button? A raise is going to be called by a lot of weaker hands.

- Do the players to your left like to see flops with weak aces if it's limped to them? Obviously you are dominating those in this case and you should limp more often.

- Will the other players play a fit or fold game on the flop (ie fold a lot to cbets)? A reason to raise preflop.

- There are tight limpers already involved. You might limp along and still be dominated if noone raises.

Ok... having dinner now [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Thanks!

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
When I said that hands like ATo/KJo play like crap in multiways pots, I meant exactly that. Not just multiways raised pots, but multiway pots at all. If a bunch of people limp the kinds of hands they usually like to limp (SC, Axs, low PP), these unsuited big card hands actually have less than their share of pot equity.

You limp ATo and a few people limpe behind you. Flop comes A86 with 2 hearts. Exactly how much money are you making with this hand if ahead (especially OOP) and how much are you losing if behind? You're likely only getting action from hands that have you beat or have a ton of outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I don't play them from MP1 and MP2. I never said that I only limp them, it depends. It depends on who is behind you and their stack sizes and tons of other stuff. To say that open-limping them always sucks is a bit narrow-minded.

[mvdgaag]

[ QUOTE ]
You limp ATo and a few people limpe behind you. Flop comes A86 with 2 hearts. Exactly how much money are you making with this hand if ahead (especially OOP) and how much are you losing if behind? You're likely only getting action from hands that have you beat or have a ton of outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see. You have to keep in mind the ranges though. There are only 8 small pocket pairs that have 12 ways to be dealt and they catch a set about once every 8.5 times (or 12% of the time). There are 7 suited connectors (45s - QJs) that are likely to limp behind that can all be dealt in only 4 ways and not very often catch a draw. Even if they catch it and you catch your ace you are ahead. On the other hand there are 8 weaker aces (A2-A9) that can be dealt in 16 ways each...

So we will be facing 252 combinations per player
12 will be sets.
84 small pocket pairs.
28 might have a draw to continue.
128 are weaker aces.

We beat this range easily, especially because at 5 and 10NL (I'm on a mission to build a small BR out of nothing and party poker has 6max starting at 25NL) I get a lot of call/call/call lines from weaker aces and draws and almost exclusively raise or checkraise flop from sets and made hands. As long as I'm in the lead it's usually opponents paying to draw or calling down with a weaker ace or lower pair. It's very easy to give up to resistance, because it's almost never a bluff. I'll need to gather a lot more data before I can show limping is profitable, but I hope never to get that much data at these stakes [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

[threads13]

One thing to keep in mind in general is that this are very marginal hands. So, nothing should show a huge profit!