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#11
07-25-2007, 11:51 AM
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Re: [5/10] 44 on the button, SB 3-bets. Free showdown raise on turn
i fail to see how this is not exactly how stox plays these types of hands, and is therefore standard in a tough SH game.
please enlighten me. 
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#12
07-25-2007, 11:51 AM
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Re: [5/10] 44 on the button, SB 3-bets. Free showdown raise on turn
[ QUOTE ]
I must be way too weak/tight in these spots. So a good line would be to call turn, and call river if it isn't an A/K/Q that's not a club? Maybe fold a non-club 9 as well? [/ QUOTE ] sounds about right. raising is bad because he rarely makes a bad fold or a bad call, we're not favorites when called, and we have too much equity to fold ourselves.
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#14
07-25-2007, 11:52 AM
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Re: [5/10] 44 on the button, SB 3-bets. Free showdown raise on turn
[ QUOTE ]
i fail to see how this is not exactly how stox plays these types of hands, and is therefore standard in a tough SH game. please enlighten me. [/ QUOTE ] he folds to a 3bet? maybe give some specific examples? if he improves to a flush does he vb river?
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#15
07-25-2007, 11:52 AM
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Re: [5/10] 44 on the button, SB 3-bets. Free showdown raise on turn
[ QUOTE ]
Care to give an example Kit? [/ QUOTE ] i just noticed we have the 4c. my comment blows. pls ignore. out of curiosity, what are situations when you guys use the free showdown play with a small PP like this? would a J9x flop be more appropriate?
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#17
07-25-2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: [5/10] 44 on the button, SB 3-bets. Free showdown raise on turn
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, folding the flop is standard. [/ QUOTE ] Says who, Ken Warren? jason_t in his good old days? Folding the flop does perhaps not suck, but I sure don't like it.
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#18
07-25-2007, 12:00 PM
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Re: [5/10] 44 on the button, SB 3-bets. Free showdown raise on turn
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Yes, folding the flop is standard. [/ QUOTE ] nonono go do some stoving [/ QUOTE ] I was thinking more reverse implied odds here, which is also why, if I called the flop, I'm not raising the turn.
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#19
07-25-2007, 12:00 PM
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Re: [5/10] 44 on the button, SB 3-bets. Free showdown raise on turn
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, folding the flop is standard. [/ QUOTE ] Are you kidding me? You want to fold this flop? Sorry if I misunderstand you but folding the flop is horrible. @ OP Turn raise is pretty bad. You should only FSD raise if - You can fold a better hand - You dont have outs - Villain will not 3-bet a worse hand Unless those three conditions are satisfied you shouldnt FSD raise. Clearly that is not the case in this hand. jba already said it: Villain will 3-bet a hand without clubs so you cant fold to a 3-bet This hand is such a standard "call flop and turn and bet if checked" to and make a decision on the river.
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#20
07-25-2007, 12:21 PM
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Re: [5/10] 44 on the button, SB 3-bets. Free showdown raise on turn
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Yes, folding the flop is standard. [/ QUOTE ] Are you kidding me? You want to fold this flop? Sorry if I misunderstand you but folding the flop is horrible. @ OP Turn raise is pretty bad. You should only FSD raise if - You can fold a better hand - You dont have outs - Villain will not 3-bet a worse hand Unless those three conditions are satisfied you shouldnt FSD raise. Clearly that is not the case in this hand. jba already said it: Villain will 3-bet a hand without clubs so you cant fold to a 3-bet This hand is such a standard "call flop and turn and bet if checked" to and make a decision on the river. [/ QUOTE ] Actually when I wrote that I was hoping that you all would say "Standard" I of course knew for sure that you would argue about my turn raise, that's why I posted the hand in the first place. Thank you for the responses, and you are right - raising the turn is not the right play. But there are a couple of positive things about it: * You said villain won't fold better hands, but I sure think it's reasonably likely he'll fold 66-99 if he doesn't have a club. That's not many hands, but they exist and when he does fold them it's an excellent result. * We may extract an extra bet from AK/AQ type hands, with or without a club, which would not necessarily bluff the river unimproved. And I hardly think they'll 3-bet semibluff with those hands on the turn, even though it's possible. * If you say that he actually will continue bluffing on the river with those hands, what that probably means are that we will often fold the best hand on the river if we don't like the river card, which would be a disaster. Or in other words, raising the turn increases the chance we'll see a showdown. Unless of course you call almost all rivers. However, I agree that this does not outweigh the negative stuff, most importantly the part when he 3-bets a made hand without a club, for example a set. Don't necessarily think he'll semi-bluff 3-bet that often though as y'all said, but the previous point is important. I suppose I hated having to make a river decision, and thus I raised the turn instead.
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