5NL Loose Passives

[DickieBets]

I'm trying to learn a TAG style of play.

This type of player sound easy to beat, but lately I've been having a lot of problems on Poker Stars 5NL.

Some are bad but there are a few who are either good at it or are running good and just kill me. They usually have something like a 60% VPIP / 2 % PFR / .1 agg (In other words - loose calling stations)

They will call any raise from a TAG - position doesn't matter! if they miss the flop they fold and lose the 4 BBs or whatever. If they hit the flop they call the flop c-bet. If you check they bet. You don't want to give them a free card so you c-bet the turn and they usually call - the river comes - they go all-in or make a value bet or check raise.

How do you counter this ?

Do you just tighten right up ? Do you give up c-betting if you miss ? If on average you only hit 1 out of 3 flops you need to have successful c-bets. If you're missing 2 out of 3 flops and having your c-bets called - you can see that they will profit more than you will - they win the preflop raise plus c-bets - you win the preflop raise only. If you run good, this is great, but that is rare - at least for me. If you wait to trap - you might succeed - but the opportunities are few and far between.

Another bad side affect is that once everyone sees you c-bet with nothing - you lose all credibility and everyone starts challenging you - especially other TAGs start 3-betting you etc.

I tried raising more - but that can cause problems if there are other TAGs on the table or someone wakes up with a good hand otherwise everyone just folds and you lose action.

It seems like the cycle is win a little, win a little, lose a lot, win a little, win a little, loose a lot.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[vixticator]

Super passive stations do not bet when you check without a hand. Don't think they are making plays against you, they are value betting. Any time they take a lead you need a big hand to consider anything other than a fold.

Stop c-betting them. They will be happy to showdown middle/bottom pair. Value bet the crap out of them. If you have a hand keep betting until they raise.

[sputum]

Here's my garbled shot (short on time, sorry)
How are they winning if they fold to the flop cbet when they miss 2/3 times?
Poker is a four street game against passives. The turn and river are very important when the pot is not that big (that is to say you have a lot behind)
Why are you cbetting with nothing? Are you raising trash?
You can beat them by playing along and limping if you like. It will improve your deep play and if you're really getting reacted to by TAGS you should switch sites/tables [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Just bet your good hands.

[DickieBets]

They win because they win more - the raise plus cbets - if they do fold I am usually only left with the preflop raise.

No I don't raise trash - I raise most hands I play, usually in late position. But Raising A-Q or A-K or suited connectors or suited Aces from the button - they don't seem to care that they're OOP because they will just check-call. Those types of hands need to hit the flop somehow, otherwise I'm c-betting with essentially nothing.

[Antinome]

If they fold when they miss you should be picking up many small pots with smallish cbets.

I'm at a loss how winning on third street 60% of the time plus seeing a 'free' card on fourth adds up to losing money.

That really should be a profitable plan all by itself.

Your range may be too predictable.
You may be being bluffed off the best hand a lot.
You may be going too far with marginal hands.
You may not be c-betting enough.
You may be trying to muscle them out of pots out of frustration.

[Restlys]

you never bluff and put more value bet out of your made hands - the variance is going to be higher but in the long run youll probably ruin those donks

and dont call a donk who raises you on the flop if you dont have more than TPTK most of the time. NL 5 are real ubber donks, their range is like a football field and they draw anything and call you until they hit...so be warry of when they do hit, value bet the hell out of them so that in the long run, your higher winning % will make you a profit

then: Are you playing enough hands to counter variance?
are they running good?
do you go on tilt easy?
just keep on working on your game.

[Mal_Pais]

TAGs at NL5? Tight-passives, maybe, but I don't think you're running into true TAGs very often there.

Value bet those loose passives. If they bet or raise, you need a strong hand. You can run a 15/12 type of game there and still get paid off. NOBODY's paying attention to what you're showing down, much less how often you c-bet.

[Restlys]

position doesnt matter, suited aces always get played, AK is a 3 way all in call hand for the NL5 donk, short staked players with 3$ or less will go AI PF with absolute crap so call with any ace with high kicker.

Spent about a year and a half on NL 5 getting 50 into 200, i know this limit very well, PM me if you have questions i could probably help you adjust to their style.