Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Review

[XXXNoahXXX]

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Does anyone have any idea approximately where UBC would rank in the USNews rankings if it included Canadian schools as well? How about U of Victoria and U of Toronto (a couple others I was considering)? I just want to get kind of an idea as to which places I may want to consider if I get accepted due to the fact that the education quality/opportunies/prestige is that much higher.

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Where do you plan on practicing after you graduate?

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If you are asking whether I plan on practising in the US or Canada, that is still up in the air. I'm not set in my ways towards either at the moment.

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This is pretty big speculation on my part, but I don't think you want to go to a Canadian law school and then practice law in the US. I don't think you'd place very well.

I know practicing law is at least 3-4 years down the line, but this is a decision that should probably be made before you invest 6 figures.

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Yes, I'm aware of the differences between the US and Canadian systems, and difficulties of switching between the two. From my understanding, it is a lot easier to get a degree from a US school and take a minor upgrade to be eligible to take the BAR in Canada than it would be to do it the other way around. This is another reason why I would consider a US school over a Canadian one.

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Yeah, i think its pretty clear if you're unsure the US would be a better bet, but even still, unless you are a candidate for at least a top 50 school, you really need to consider where in the US, etc. before making this decision.

[Scotty.]

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Does anyone have any idea approximately where UBC would rank in the USNews rankings if it included Canadian schools as well? How about U of Victoria and U of Toronto (a couple others I was considering)? I just want to get kind of an idea as to which places I may want to consider if I get accepted due to the fact that the education quality/opportunies/prestige is that much higher.

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Where do you plan on practicing after you graduate?

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If you are asking whether I plan on practising in the US or Canada, that is still up in the air. I'm not set in my ways towards either at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty big speculation on my part, but I don't think you want to go to a Canadian law school and then practice law in the US. I don't think you'd place very well.

I know practicing law is at least 3-4 years down the line, but this is a decision that should probably be made before you invest 6 figures.

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Yes, I'm aware of the differences between the US and Canadian systems, and difficulties of switching between the two. From my understanding, it is a lot easier to get a degree from a US school and take a minor upgrade to be eligible to take the BAR in Canada than it would be to do it the other way around. This is another reason why I would consider a US school over a Canadian one.

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Yeah, i think its pretty clear if you're unsure the US would be a better bet, but even still, unless you are a candidate for at least a top 50 school, you really need to consider where in the US, etc. before making this decision.

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OK, well U of Florida (Levin), which ranks right around 50 this year, states their median acceptance to be 159 LSAT and 3.66 GPA. I'm not sure what my GPA translates into, but it looks like I'm a good candidate for there.

University of Minnesota - Twin Cities, ranked 20th, has a 25th-75th range of 163-167 on the LSAT. I fall right in the middle of that. They also sent me an email saying I should submit an application.

I don't know much about the whole process, but I would imagine I should be able to get accepted into some top 50 schools.

[XXXNoahXXX]

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Does anyone have any idea approximately where UBC would rank in the USNews rankings if it included Canadian schools as well? How about U of Victoria and U of Toronto (a couple others I was considering)? I just want to get kind of an idea as to which places I may want to consider if I get accepted due to the fact that the education quality/opportunies/prestige is that much higher.

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Where do you plan on practicing after you graduate?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are asking whether I plan on practising in the US or Canada, that is still up in the air. I'm not set in my ways towards either at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty big speculation on my part, but I don't think you want to go to a Canadian law school and then practice law in the US. I don't think you'd place very well.

I know practicing law is at least 3-4 years down the line, but this is a decision that should probably be made before you invest 6 figures.

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Yes, I'm aware of the differences between the US and Canadian systems, and difficulties of switching between the two. From my understanding, it is a lot easier to get a degree from a US school and take a minor upgrade to be eligible to take the BAR in Canada than it would be to do it the other way around. This is another reason why I would consider a US school over a Canadian one.

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Yeah, i think its pretty clear if you're unsure the US would be a better bet, but even still, unless you are a candidate for at least a top 50 school, you really need to consider where in the US, etc. before making this decision.

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OK, well U of Florida (Levin), which ranks right around 50 this year, states their median acceptance to be 159 LSAT and 3.66 GPA. I'm not sure what my GPA translates into, but it looks like I'm a good candidate for there.

University of Minnesota - Twin Cities, ranked 20th, has a 25th-75th range of 163-167 on the LSAT. I fall right in the middle of that. They also sent me an email saying I should submit an application.

I don't know much about the whole process, but I would imagine I should be able to get accepted into some top 50 schools.

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Even still, go to NALPdirectory.com and check out some firms in various cities. Scroll down, see where they do OCI (on campus interviewing).

Some firm in Phoenix will say something like.... U of Arizona, Arizona State, Standford, Harvard, Columbia, NYU.



U of Texas-Austin is ranked 18th and BC is ranked 28th, but when it comes to working in Boston BC>>>>>>>UT.


If you come from Canada, go to school in Minnesota and then try to get a job in Denver, they are going to know why Denver. why their firm. they want local connections. also, alumni networking and career services are more local than you think for all but the top schools.

[remi983]

Noah, can you offer any info about the dating life in law school? Is it really that different from dating undergrad chicks?

[XXXNoahXXX]

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Noah, can you offer any info about the dating life in law school? Is it really that different from dating undergrad chicks?

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People act like once you get to law school there is no social life of any kind, but that is definitely not the case. If you accepted every invitation, attended every bar review that was sent out via e-mail or mentioned before class, you could be out drinking every night of the week.

Since most law schools are smaller, I think it might be weird to date someone from law school, especially your own section, but people do it. Since it is such a small group and you spend a lot of time together, some people draw comparisons to high school dating drama and gossip, so sleeping around like you did in UG might get a bit awkward.

There definitely still are some law school couples though, which is pretty cool I guess. Not many study partners get to study torts for three hours then take a study break to screw.

My law school shares some facilities with freshman at the UG, so there are tons of 18 yr olds walking around, and if I was single I'd be tempted to try and relive my UG dorm room sexual escapades, but alas its a no go.

If you are looking to find a girlfriend, I recommend looking outside law school. If you date someone from law school, you will constantly be talking about class when you're trying to relax. Its nice that my gf isn't, and she lets me know when I'm blathering on about law school stuff too much. Most law schools are in cities, moreso than UG, so just hit up the local market. Sometimes it is tough because you're now a full time student and people your age all have working jobs, so wining and dining too much isn't going to fly, but I recommend finding a nice girl in some unrelated grad school, upperlevel UG or something.

Not sure if this answer makes sense.

[Dave D]

Just wanted to add that just about everything Noah has said has been pretty solid advice. I think I disagree with him about outlining though. I didn't first semester and just used other peoples, and second semester made my own for most classes and I think it helped. Basically, once I had made my own outline I barely looked at it anymore, becaause it was the process of making it that mattered, not the document itself.

Also, 50-75 page outlines make no sense to me. Thats literally about how many pages of notes (typed) I had (maybe 90 pages tops). The purpose of an outline is to sumarize the notes, the notes should be a summary of what's said in class. So the outline is a summary of a summary, the best one is probably no more than 30 pages, and mine were usually about 20 for a year's worth of material.

Also, I didn't bring my laptop to class. Lots of people talk on AIM/shop for clothes or whatever, and I just didn't want to be distracted. I also like taking notes by hand. I think people complaining about not being able to write fast enough is crap. For me, taking notes is listening to what's being said and trying to get the content down, not trascribing. I would then later type my notes up (like at the end of the week) and end up summarizing those too some. So really my ouline was a summary of a summary of a summary.

Also someone asked about GPA. My college GPA was a 2.6, my lsat was a 156. I had a really rough first two years of college (I was sick a lot, I ended up having sinus surgery after junior year, I just thought I had a weak immune system and was extra sensative to seasonal alergies). My senior year I had a 3.3 both semesters, and I forget what my junior year was but it was around a 3. Law schools like seeing improvement, and I still managed to get in somewhere decent.

If you're grades suck, as Noah said, take some time off. You wont be behind (average law school age is 26) and it puts some distance between you and bad grades.

[remi983]

How much do hornbooks and all these commercial study aids actually help? Worth the $$$$? Any suggestions on selecting the right outside study materials? I'm guessing they'd be good for a broad overview. If the proff tells me not to buy commercial study aids, is there some tangible reason for this other than the proff's ego? Will it really matter if I buy them anyway?

Thanks in advance Noah and Dave.

Dave, can you post your current class rank/gpa?

[XXXNoahXXX]

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How much do hornbooks and all these commercial study aids actually help? Worth the $$$$? Any suggestions on selecting the right outside study materials? I'm guessing they'd be good for a broad overview. If the proff tells me not to buy commercial study aids, is there some tangible reason for this other than the proff's ego? Will it really matter if I buy them anyway?

Thanks in advance Noah and Dave.

Dave, can you post your current class rank/gpa?

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I'd get a hornbook for each class, canned briefs if you want.


Professors always say don't bother, but that's because they think they can teach you the material.



My crim law final, we could use any materials during the test including commercial outlines.

One of the policy questions involved comparing and contrasting different views and standards of insanity defense and picking the best one.

One of the chapters in a commercial outline I had with me at the test was entitled "Comparative View of Insanity Defenses: The Pros and Cons of each Approach."



Another question involved a scenario that mirrored a real case that we didn't discuss. Only problem was that E&E book mirrored one of their hypos on the same case. So the people with that book literally had a complete answer for them already written out.



This obviously is atypical, in that most profs dont let commercial outlines in, but if you had read them prior to the test it still would have been a huge help.

[Dave D]

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How much do hornbooks and all these commercial study aids actually help? Worth the $$$$? Any suggestions on selecting the right outside study materials? I'm guessing they'd be good for a broad overview. If the proff tells me not to buy commercial study aids, is there some tangible reason for this other than the proff's ego? Will it really matter if I buy them anyway?

Thanks in advance Noah and Dave.

Dave, can you post your current class rank/gpa?

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My class rank/gpa isn't terribly important for this thread, but I'm not going to be on law review. I'm thinking about writing on for the tech law one at some point, but whatever. I am just about average here. Incidently this brings up another point that my school still curves around a B-. From my experiance (talking to friends at law schools and random people I meet) the worse the school is in ranking, the more likely it is to enforce stricter grading. Curving around a C+/B- seems to be way more common on the lower end, whereas all the other Boston schools curve around a B (except maybe New England, but I dunno), I think I've heard that harvard does a B+ but I'm, not sure. So go to a better school because everyone gets a B and you feel less bad about being average, because everyone's average and writes 3.2, or whatever. Hope that makes sense. They're considering upping it to a B average here, for obvious reasons that the students get twice hurt (oh, I see you went to that school, and you went to a much better school for undergrad, shouldn't you be top 10%?).

Or go somewhere like NYU, Northeastern, or Yale where they have no grades. A guy I know who is doing an econ PHD at harvard told me how his law school friends said they got their grades back after 72 hours. There's no way a prof could read 80+ exams in 72 hours. Especially when they were probably all essay exam.

In general grades are really arbitrary. You're grading someone's ability to write really really fast, and how they think. This never really happens in the real world. Also, as Noah said, sometimes you just get plain old lucky for no reason. Or personally, I pwned my Con Law exam, but that's because I'd taken conlaw for a year and a half in college, with a much (like top 3 of my acedemic career) better prof and already knew the stuff. But I actually thought I did bad because I totally misallocated my time and in general hated my answer, but whatever.

In general grades are really really arbitrary. Even profs will tell you the difference between an A- and a B+ on some days will be how many cookies the prof ate that day. Also, just to add to what Noah said, my contracts prof would write cases on the board during lecture and just be like "for some good examples, check these out", but they weren't required or anything. Sometimes he'd just write them (usually in the first 5 minuts of every class) and not say anything or referance them. On our final, one of the 3 essay questions mirrored one of the fact patters from one of those cases almost exactly. So I already had a lot of an answer to the question because I'd read the court's holding/reasoning.

Also, Emmanuel's crunchtime are really really good. Especialy for conlaw. Glannon guides are good too, especially for Civ Pro (that's what he teaches at my law school). Don't listen to profs that tell you not to get outlines and suppliments, they're just plain wrong/lying. Just don't learn everything from those books, use it as reinforcement. It's kind of like in math class where you pay attention in lecture, and then do practice sets at home to reinforce it. Except it's not as cut and dried as in math, so you can't learn it all from the book.

[remi983]

Thanks for the answers. And thanks for the NALP site, its the sh.it