check up

[DeathDonkey]

I want to talk about the turn check on hand 2. I feel like when I'm tilting or playing poorly, I make this check and call a river bet and tell myself I'm inducing bluffs and all is great in the world. But the more you take this line the more metagame problems you start to run into. For one, LAGs at these stakes adjust quickly and realize "every time he checks the turn he's going to showdown" so they stop bluffing the river and value bet you to death. They also now know "when he bets the turn he has a very strong hand or a very weak one" and that's pretty easy to adjust to also and very bad for you. They also peel the flop more liberally because they will get to the river for one small bet more often, and make random backdoor draws on you that you pay off every time (hello implied odds!), which tilts you further and you spiral into a showdown monkey looking at A4o on the button and thinking "ok to showdown we gooooo!".

I think the tougherest players bet this turn and deal with the tough spot when they get checkraised in many different ways.

-DeathDonkey

[sharpie]

Nice post double d.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to talk about the turn check on hand 2. I feel like when I'm tilting or playing poorly, I make this check and call a river bet and tell myself I'm inducing bluffs and all is great in the world. But the more you take this line the more metagame problems you start to run into. For one, LAGs at these stakes adjust quickly and realize "every time he checks the turn he's going to showdown" so they stop bluffing the river and value bet you to death. They also now know "when he bets the turn he has a very strong hand or a very weak one" and that's pretty easy to adjust to also and very bad for you. They also peel the flop more liberally because they will get to the river for one small bet more often, and make random backdoor draws on you that you pay off every time (hello implied odds!), which tilts you further and you spiral into a showdown monkey looking at A4o on the button and thinking "ok to showdown we gooooo!".

I think the tougherest players bet this turn and deal with the tough spot when they get checkraised in many different ways.

-DeathDonkey

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DD,

Awesome post, but plz say what you would do in the particular hand if you got c/r.

[DpR]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to talk about the turn check on hand 2. I feel like when I'm tilting or playing poorly, I make this check and call a river bet and tell myself I'm inducing bluffs and all is great in the world. But the more you take this line the more metagame problems you start to run into. For one, LAGs at these stakes adjust quickly and realize "every time he checks the turn he's going to showdown" so they stop bluffing the river and value bet you to death. They also now know "when he bets the turn he has a very strong hand or a very weak one" and that's pretty easy to adjust to also and very bad for you. They also peel the flop more liberally because they will get to the river for one small bet more often, and make random backdoor draws on you that you pay off every time (hello implied odds!), which tilts you further and you spiral into a showdown monkey looking at A4o on the button and thinking "ok to showdown we gooooo!".

I think the tougherest players bet this turn and deal with the tough spot when they get checkraised in many different ways.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing I would note on this particular hand is the limited read we have. Obv, it would be nice to know how this guy plays his blind defenses (i.e. I generally assume a flush or straigth draw is less likely now that he didnt c/r flop). Also, this seems like a pretty good flop to c/r a 2 or 3. Basically, it is a great flop to c/r any med/weak hands and draws.

To me, that makes it more likely than usual that he has a Q and wants to c/r the turn. I personally do not really like to play a Q that way very often, but I would say that I see it more frequently from "competant, nothing special" players than some others.

So player dependant I do not mind the turn check that much. Of course I may be somewhat biased by the fact that there is no hand I could ahve here in the BB that my "base" play would be to check/call this flop.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
I want to talk about the turn check on hand 2. I feel like when I'm tilting or playing poorly, I make this check and call a river bet and tell myself I'm inducing bluffs and all is great in the world. But the more you take this line the more metagame problems you start to run into. For one, LAGs at these stakes adjust quickly and realize "every time he checks the turn he's going to showdown" so they stop bluffing the river and value bet you to death. They also now know "when he bets the turn he has a very strong hand or a very weak one" and that's pretty easy to adjust to also and very bad for you. They also peel the flop more liberally because they will get to the river for one small bet more often, and make random backdoor draws on you that you pay off every time (hello implied odds!), which tilts you further and you spiral into a showdown monkey looking at A4o on the button and thinking "ok to showdown we gooooo!".

I think the tougherest players bet this turn and deal with the tough spot when they get checkraised in many different ways.

-DeathDonkey



DD,

Awesome post, but plz say what you would do in the particular hand if you got c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well... he said when you get CR'ed you deal with it however you feel like is best at the time. This is of course very, very opponent specific, and even more than that can be specific to that opponent at the time that it happens. I'm guessing you call down a decent amount vs. people who have decently high % of bluffs and semibluffs on the turn CR. Vs some it would be an easy fold, or possibly it'd even be close to call, then fold river UI on certain rivers that are bad.

Vs. some who have really high CR turn %'s, (such that they could have weird medium strenth hands that they might be able to lay down) it might even be correct to 3bet and bet river... but I think the type of player this will work best on is raree.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
first one: no read. i raise 44 otb, bb calls. flop is j82r he checkraises...plan?
does your plan change in any way if there is a fd?

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Getting to SD in this hand isn't too bad a default vs. an unknown... then again, callin the flop CR, and folding on a bad turn isn't too wrong either. I don't think it changes too much if there's a FD, except for the fact that if the flush hits it might be right to fold the turn or river.

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next one different villian - he's unremarkable but competent. i raise A3o otb bb calls. flop is Q23 two spades i bet he calls. turn is an offsuit 9 i check behind.

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I agree w/ DD here, I think betting this turn is basically a must for a lot of reasons.

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last one: villian is pretty aggro. he opens otb i 3bet A8s from the sb. flop is J27 i bet he calls turn is another J i bet/fold.

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I like the bet here, though C/C can't be too bad if he's autobetting when yoou check. Though vs. an aggro I don't like the fold too much. Of course it depends just how, and what type of aggro this player is... but overall vs. an aggro I think you're ahead here way too often to make this a good fold.

[PartyGirlUK]

nice post DD

[baronzeus]

i think hand 1 i call down unless a 9, T, or Q hits, a 7 is a tough call i dont know what to do

hand 2

i think you can bet and bet river...too many hands that peel, any suited hand with a 3, any 54 65 64 A2 Ax spades that might not bet river


hand 3 i think you played it ok, i dont think you can bet fold that all the time though

[baronzeus]

oh im almost always calling down in hand 2 as well

[DpR]

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too many hands that peel, any suited hand with a 3, any 54 65 64 A2 Ax spades that might not bet river



[/ QUOTE ]

Am I just imagining that all of these hands typically c/r this flop?