JJ in EP, gets 3-bet preflop

[Yoshi63]

10th hand at new table, just after rebuy period. Villian seems OK from what I've seen.

PokerStars Tournament, $10+$1 (rebuy) Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150)

Hero is UTG+1 (15485 in chips)
Villian is MP (8220 in chips)

Hero is dealt [Jh Jd]

fold, Hero raises to 500, folds, Villian raises 1000 to 1500, folds, Hero..?

I'm certain pushing here sucks since he's never folding anything worse and JJ kinda sucks against his range. Only question is do I call, and if so what's my plan post flop? I'm leaning towards a fold preflop.

[Cornell Fiji]

all-in

I don't want to play JJ OOP with just 2 psb left.

And JJ doesn't suck against his range. I don't have pokerstove on this computer though so you will have to check his range out yourself.

Also re: Hes not calling with anything worse: How often do you see a thread on here with someone who wants to fold QQ preflop when the action goes UTG raise, hero reraises, UTG shoves. And these are supposedly smart players who want to make that fold.

Also re: he is not calling with anything that we beat. He is never raise-folding with AK/AQ here. There is also the special kind of donk who will always put you on AK and will call with his 88-TT. This is especially common in the first few hands after a rebuy period ends... its like these players can't gear down.

That said I don't play in these games so what do you think his reraising range is?

[Yoshi63]

I figured his rr range something like JJ+ AQs+ AKo. Many people prefer to flat in position with the medium PP's. I wasn't giving off any aggro vibes, and neither was he - hence the tight range.

Against this range I am 38%, which now that I actually calculate the pot odds, is almost enough for the 41% I need to call. Just adding TT to the range makes it 43% and a profitable push.

At the time I felt like pushing was spew, but I guess it might be the move. Any other comments?

[supair]

I wouldnt be too worried about playing this post flop. With the stack we have we dont HAVE to shove or fold here IMO. Its not an unprofitable push, its just a bit ott for me, against an unknown three bettor, especially when we have opened UTG. Im not sure we cant find out for sure where we are post flop without just doubling him up if he has us crushed.

[SuperUberBob]

Definite shove preflop for all the reason Cornell mentioned.

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt be too worried about playing this post flop. With the stack we have we dont HAVE to shove or fold here IMO. Its not an unprofitable push, its just a bit ott for me, against an unknown three bettor, especially when we have opened UTG. Im not sure we cant find out for sure where we are post flop without just doubling him up if he has us crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that we are not nearly deep enough to find out where we are at and then profitably fold.

What do you do if you smooth call and the flop is:

268r and we bet and he shoves?

if the flop is 26Q and we bet and he shoves?

what do you do on a JT2 flop? AKJ?

Are you check folding any flop with an ace on it? With a king? Are you bet folding these flops?

Are you really folding in these spots getting almost 3:1?

I think this is a great example of the cost of information being much more expensive than the price we pay for it.

[Yoshi63]

What sort of ranges would you put him on to rr me here (bob/fiji)?

[Cornell Fiji]

I think he shoves the flop with whatever he rrs with pf.

I am too far removed from the standard villain in this game to give an accurate range but I would assume that its

AA - 10%
KK - 10%
QQ - 10%
AK - 30%
AQ - 10%
JJ - 8%
TT - 6%
99 - 4%
88 - 2%
Random donk factor - 10%

give or take a few % on each.

[Mauberly]

I keep reading the advice on this post to push all-in with a small pair(JJ) and cannot figure out how that could possibly be a +EV against a re-raiser who has shown down only quality hands. You are not that deep in the tournament, why play an all in hand? Almost every successful Tournament player says to avoid all-ins at this stage unless you suck and have to play this way.

[supair]

[ QUOTE ]
I keep reading the advice on this post to push all-in with a small pair(JJ) and cannot figure out how that could possibly be a +EV against a re-raiser who has shown down only quality hands. You are not that deep in the tournament, why play an all in hand? Almost every successful Tournament player says to avoid all-ins at this stage unless you suck and have to play this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

CF is suggesting the shove here mate because post flop he thinks the stacks of the villain and ourselves do not allow for any kind of manouvering and information gatherin given the preflop action, and that any meaningful betting would lead to an all in situation post flop anyway. The advice given by top tournaments players that you allude to is meant for when you have deep stacks. I am just of the opinion that we ARE just deep enough for us to exit this hand if required, correctly, and still have enough of a stack left to compete and play our favoured game.

Think of the range of hands the villain puts us on for a second. We raise UTG, and then we call his 3 bet. I think he puts us on 1010+ and AKs/o. If the flop comes under cards, and we lead for the pot, and villain shoves/reraises we fold. He knows we dont lead that flop with AK, and if we have an overpair that we are NOT folding, so he wouldnt shove with overs. If he shoves to our PSB we ARE beat. If he flat calls its likely he has the same hand as us, or something similar, say a pair of tens, and the turn gets tricky.

If the flop comes one overcard we check, looking to check raise anything other than a PSB (which I fold to). The pot is t3225 post flop, and villain has around t6700. If he bets 1500, we make it 3500, he can fold and still have 5200 (an M of 20), he isnt pot committed to the point where he has to just shove any checkraise.

Basically, any hand that we beat that demands a C/bet cannot lead for the entire pot, and cannot play on to a checkraise. Only QQ+ can lead for the entire pot here and any hand that beats us shoves to our check raise and we get away. If we check and he shoves with one overcard? Im calling.

If we check and he checks behind (only a really tricky player would do this with QQ+) we play it fast on the turn, leading for the pot.

This is just my thinking as the hand unfolds in the heat of the battle, these are the ideas going through my head when I try and find the best course of action quickly, and therefore i obviously wouldnt say that its right or better than any other way of playing it, its just the way I would play it. I think we can play this hand post flop in such a way (very aggressive betting) that we can get a definite view of the hand he holds and where we stand (due mainly to the tightness of BOTH our ranges), without jeopardising a lot of our stack preflop. If we have to fold we'd be pretty sure (not 100% granted) were beat, and we'd have only shipped 4000 maximum rather than doubling him up.

That said, shoving preflop eliminates the need for all this manouvering, thinking and betsizing, and makes life a lot easier win or loose [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]