HARRAH'S VINDICTIVE AGGRESSION AGAINST PATRONS

[Scary_Tiger]

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Youre flat out dead wrong about not prosecuting or persecuting grandma who didn't know what she was doing or just a lil greedy.

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If granny just stumbled on a machine and had no knowledge or understanding of what happened, played this slot just like any other, and then cashed out and wandered on down to the next slot to play some more, no she's not being prosecuted. They gots no case and they know it.

But if granny stood in line for an hour while 20 folks in front of her took turns converting $1000 into $10000, then pumped in her $100's and hit cashout without playing, she's going down with the rest of 'em.

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Why is this illegal? What are they being charged with?

[Bluegrass Poker]

The more I thought about it the more I realize my initial post was wrong. I was only thinking about the issue from a general criminal law standpoint in which the victim has some say so over the prosecution (in most cases).

Obviously, I didn't think about the regulatory issues and the gaming commission playing into how this particular issue could work.

I am not familiar with Indiana gaming laws but depending on how those are set up it really could be out of Harrah's hands.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

(I posted this last night but for some reason it wasn't here this morning?)

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I'm now finished contradicting myself and not as sure if I disagree with you or not TT. I would still say that Harrahs initially got the ball rolling on this though.

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of course they got the ball rolling, they have regulatory issues they must contend with. But Its likely (based on experiance in other markets, I don't know how the laws work there) in the hands of the local casino commission which contacts the DA as necessary.

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[Wongboy]

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Youre flat out dead wrong about not prosecuting or persecuting grandma who didn't know what she was doing or just a lil greedy.

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If granny just stumbled on a machine and had no knowledge or understanding of what happened, played this slot just like any other, and then cashed out and wandered on down to the next slot to play some more, no she's not being prosecuted. They gots no case and they know it.

But if granny stood in line for an hour while 20 folks in front of her took turns converting $1000 into $10000, then pumped in her $100's and hit cashout without playing, she's going down with the rest of 'em.

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Why is this illegal? What are they being charged with?

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I think this sets a dangerous predcedent. In this case it may be obvious to the non-drunk player that the machine is out of whack, but exactly what is the obligation that I as a patron need to meet regarding the verification / audit of a slot machine.

Hypothetically, if I play at a VP machine and the actual payout is 2X the amount listed (giving me 18 credits for a flush instead of 9), do I have an obligation to notice this and report it to management? If I fail to do so, do I risk prosecution? Does the answer change if I am visibly intoxicated? If so, does it matter that the victim (casino) did everything within their power to encourage my intoxicated state and lack of judgment?

I would think that the casino will have a difficult time proving that the patrons failed to live up to their duty to: A) notice that the machine was not set correctly; B) know that this was an error and was not a special promotion of some type; and C) notify management.

I normally assume that I have very few responsibilities in this regard. This is one of the reasons why I am comfortable getting drunk when I play slots/VP, and I do not recalculate the pay-outs, etc. I could see requiring patrons to return the erroneous gains, but prosecutions would be tough. Of course, I am not a lawyer, and I believe that we should have a high hurdle before people are convicted of a crime.

[mxp2004]

Harrahs new slot parlor in Chester, PA had a public relations fiasco shortly after it opened that had to do with a software malfunction in a slot machine. Someone working for Harrahs was testing a promotion that would randomly award $100,000 to a slot player. She sent a message to a machine that she thought was not in service to test the system. However, the employee accidently sent the message to a live machine with a player in front of it.

The player naturally got very excited about his big win, but Harrahs refused to pay. State law seemed to be on its side that the "prize" was not valid. The player still sued, and the suit generated a lot of bad publicity for Harrahs. Rightly or wrongly, the public was questioning Harrahs' integrity to award prizes as reflected on their machines.

Despite the questionable merit of the lawsuit, Harrahs eventually relented and paid the player the full amount of the jackpot. In the end, it decided that the good public relations move outweighed the "loss" involved in paying a player something that he had not actually won.

I wonder if Harrahs will back down in the situation that the OP is describing. Whatever the true facts are, it's not hard to imagine a lot of negative publicity for Harrahs if patrons wind up getting arrested. Is there enough money at stake to take that kind of PR hit? I don't know enough about the casino-industry to have an opinion on that.

[AngusThermopyle]

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I wonder if Harrahs will back down in the situation that the OP is describing. Whatever the true facts are, it's not hard to imagine a lot of negative publicity for Harrahs if patrons wind up getting arrested. Is there enough money at stake to take that kind of PR hit? I don't know enough about the casino-industry to have an opinion on that.

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"Mary Jo Widget was video taped putting a $100 bill in the machine. She then quickly put in four more. She cashed out some and sent her sister to the cage with the slip. When her sister returned with the money, Widget proceeded to feed the machine forty $100 bills. She then cashed out in 20 installments."

Think the public will side with Mary Jo or with Harrah's?

The question is whether Harrahs is going after everyone or mainly the ones who were squeezing the golden egg laying goose for all they could.

[*TT*]

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I would think that the casino will have a difficult time proving that the patrons failed to live up to their duty to: A) notice that the machine was not set correctly; B) know that this was an error and was not a special promotion of some type; and C) notify management.

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1) Its not in the hands of the casino.

2) Gambling control or whatever the local commission is will likely request the players club logs, video, and slot machine logs. Its very easy to prove who knowingly took advantage of the incorrectly set slot machine vs people who just got lucky.

[AliasMrJones]

It just seems ironic that it is legal for people to play a machine that is set up to screw them (by paying out <100% of what is put in), but it is illegal for people to play a machine that isn't or is set up the other way around. Seems like it should be, "What's good for the goose..."

[Wongboy]

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I would think that the casino will have a difficult time proving that the patrons failed to live up to their duty to: A) notice that the machine was not set correctly; B) know that this was an error and was not a special promotion of some type; and C) notify management.

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1) Its not in the hands of the casino.

2) Gambling control or whatever the local commission is will likely request the players club logs, video, and slot machine logs. Its very easy to prove who knowingly took advantage of the incorrectly set slot machine vs people who just got lucky.

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I agree that it will likely be relatively easy to prove that people knew the machine was giving them something for nothing in this case. It just sets a bad precendent regarding incorrect pay tables and other errors that players could reasonably be expected to notice and which might not be quite as obvious.

I'm just glad that I did not take advantage of the free coin offer that Harrahs sent me last month. That was an even bigger error. They were going to give me free slot credits and I did not even have to put $1 in the machine. Imagine what my punishment would have been for that one!

Edited to add: I understand that it is not entirely in the hands of the casino. It would be nice for Harrahs to demonstrate this by making the players whole for any fines that players have to pay to Gaming, and also making it clear to Gaming that they do not want to press any charges, etc.