I am going to hell for this? Stupid preflop question.

[Dids]

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I feel like there's some odd presumption that my post flop play sucks, and it umm... doesn't.

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You said in another thread you didn't know what ICM was. Playing draws with odds is fine in cash. In SnGs it's death because when your chips double your $$$ equity doesn't double. For example taking a 50/50 on the first hand is bad because you lose $10 or gain $8.25 by doubling up - the rest of the equity spreads out to other players at the table ($.25 each in this case).

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ICM is something that it seems like most people use even if they don't know what it is. The factors that drive my decision making are basically the same as if I was using ICM calcs as a driving force. Obv I'm not flipping on the first hand.

I think my biggest leak is likely just a lack of agression in +EV spots, which why I raised some of the questions I did in my other thread.

[Iq75]

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I feel like there's some odd presumption that my post flop play sucks, and it umm... doesn't. I couldn't possibly imagine folding this hand ever in these games.

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That is probably just because a lot of the people (including me) that post in the STT forum do not have great postflop skills.

I have actually been folding this. Good thing that i read this thread.

[Al P]

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ICM is something that it seems like most people use even if they don't know what it is. The factors that drive my decision making are basically the same as if I was using ICM calcs as a driving force.

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OK

200/400
BB 2000 (You)
SB 9500
UTG 800
CO 1200

SB shoves - do you call with TT or AKs? Why or why not?

[Dids]

Do I get reads?

What's SB's range?

Is SB smart enough to leverage his stack against the shorties?

I think I hate calling.

I fold UTG and CO will be put to the test before I will, and ahe big stack can push them around. I'm also working under the assumption that these are avg 11 sng players and will do something stupid in short order. Given our stack sizes I feel like I can outlast them and not have to flip with the guy who has me covered.

I'm guess, 'cause you're asking that ICM wants me to call because a double here gives me a great shot at money and folding doesn't significantly increase my chances?

[Kibby]

Good answer Dids. This is a fold. I think I would only be calling QQ+ here.

[kleath]

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I'm guess, 'cause you're asking that ICM wants me to call because a double here gives me a great shot at money and folding doesn't significantly increase my chances?

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I dont think you really understand ICM if you think you ICM would dictate a call. Just to let you know in this spot you should fold AK every time and TT unless he's pushing like 80% or more according to an ICM tool.

[Dan.]

Is the above supposed to be some sort of [censored] gotcha? That seems really rude, whether or not it was intended that way.

[Dids]

kleath,

I thought he was being trixy, turns out that it confirmed what I thought I thought about ICM was right and not what I thought he thought I thought.

"you should fold AK every time and TT unless he's pushing like 80% or more according to an ICM tool. "

Is pretty much what I would say based on just smart strat regardless of a math driven analysis.

I'm not trying to discount ICM, just suggesting that not grasping it didn't mean I was a fish [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[Slim Pickens]

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Slim, I think a typical $11 stt player who limps the button there will have defined their hand as something like [A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T2+,92+,82+,72+,62+,52+,42+,32,22+].

Dids,

lvl 1 I like a limp. I'd fold lvl 2 though. Somewhere further down the line it might become a push.

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I'm kind of not believing what I'm seeing in this thread. First of all, the three options can't be that far apart. They definitely rearrange themselves depending on a lot of external factors: the number of tables being played, postflop skill, and table character to name a few. Second, isn't this the same forum that wanted to fold AQo UTG in a 6-max SNG?

In a 9-max SNG with my normal number of tables going, I'd limp with 65+ BB, fold about 25-60 BB, appropriate raise 8-25 BB, and push less than 8 BB.

[kleath]

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kleath,

I thought he was being trixy, turns out that it confirmed what I thought I thought about ICM was right and not what I thought he thought I thought.

"you should fold AK every time and TT unless he's pushing like 80% or more according to an ICM tool. "

Is pretty much what I would say based on just smart strat regardless of a math driven analysis.

I'm not trying to discount ICM, just suggesting that not grasping it didn't mean I was a fish [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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My wording was bad, just saying that you should want to start learning ICM if you play SNGs, your answer was right that you don't really want to call but it seemed like you had the wrong idea on what incorperating ICM would have you do. I suggest downloading the SNGwiz free trial you get 30 days full featured, it has a quiz function you can use and you can go through a mess of tournaments rather quickly.